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Old 02-13-2006, 05:58 AM   #26
Mark Freeman
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Re: sword ban?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
as an ex military it amuses me to see folks still say we bear arms to keep the government in check... get real! Bubba and his buddies with their shotguns and pickup trucks won't stand a chance against the hardware and training of the military... and before anyone says "But Iraq" let me say that the idiots who are giving the orders are playing some sort of game not trying to win a war... the soldiers are in a no win situation, but still holding tough in a country where everyone has guns and rpg's and shit and they are severly out numbered and undersupported by the policy makers in Washington...
Edwin,
I'm not a military man myself, but I do agree that soldiers 'always' get the shite end of the stick. My guess is that most people join up for a noble cause. It is up to the citizenry to make sure that if their troops are deployed it is for the 'right' reasons. I feel for the families of any soldiers serving in Iraq, and for that matter Afghanistan.They or not facing troops in a conventional sense, they are often up against an 'ideology' and so far no weapon has been invented to blast that! (apart from education, maybe).
Hopefully not too many more lives will be lost before withdrawal from Iraq, and Afghanistan. I personally do not see those countries basking in the eternal democracy that we leave behind. The (Medieval ) Mullahs have an enormous influence, and it won't be too long before they start to effect change in the direction that suits them.

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-13-2006, 04:55 PM   #27
Michael Varin
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Re: sword ban?

Mark,

Good humor indeed. I was just poking fun at your English-ness with the snooty line. I was not offended by anything you'd said. I tend not to take things personally, especially over the internet with people I don't know well.

You mention suicide bombers and terrorism; I did offer an idea that I think will do a lot to rid us of these problems. It won't happen overnight, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. I could make some assumptions about what you might offer as solutions better understanding of Islamic culture, aid from the UN, total ban on weapons and explosives and heavy regulations and licensing for the use of any substances that could be used to build explosive devices, but in the end they will only be assumptions, so I would like to hear what you think?

I believe that all human dealings should be voluntary. I believe that given the proper climate the vast majority of people will treat each other with respect and kindness, and more importantly, will understand why they need to behave in this way.

Which is the better situation, a society where people voluntarily treat each other kindly, or a society where kindness is compulsory?
Alas, life involves death and it always will. Despite what they tell you, no government can make life completely safe, and look at all the freedoms that are lost in the attempt to do so.

I have heard it said and believe it thoroughly -- personal responsibility is the price of Liberty.

Michael
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Old 02-13-2006, 06:01 PM   #28
Edwin Neal
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Re: sword ban?

we could always give them more explosives... when no more wanted to blow themselves up... problem solved... could take a while though...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-13-2006, 06:21 PM   #29
Mark Freeman
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Re: sword ban?

Michael,
Quote:
Good humor indeed. I was just poking fun at your English-ness with the snooty line. I was not offended by anything you'd said. I tend not to take things personally, especially over the internet with people I don't know well.
An unarmed Englishman only has a sharp tongue to defend himself with

Quote:
You mention suicide bombers and terrorism; I did offer an idea that I think will do a lot to rid us of these problems. It won't happen overnight, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. I could make some assumptions about what you might offer as solutions better understanding of Islamic culture, aid from the UN, total ban on weapons and explosives and heavy regulations and licensing for the use of any substances that could be used to build explosive devices, but in the end they will only be assumptions, so I would like to hear what you think?
Where did you offer the idea? could you re-state if for me, as I would be interested to see it.
I'm not sure that I can offer any solutions, but if the West continues to supply arms to the world at the rate it is doing, and it doesn't look like slowing down any time soon, then it can't be surprised if some of it gets thrown back in their own direction.
The determined suicide bomber is a very difficult weapon to disarm, they are like pre programmed super-smart bombs on a mission (from God??), impossible to reason with (a bit like the bombs in Dark Star), impervious to threats. I mean what do you threaten them with??
Yes there has to be a greater understanding of Islam, and Mr Bush's use of the word 'Crusade' was ill chosen and only served to make matters worse, as have many other of his actions/statements.
There 'has' to be negotiation with 'terrorists' it's unpalatable but neccessary. Northern Ireland, is a case in point, The Good Friday Agreement would not have been reached without including all sides.

Quote:
I believe that all human dealings should be voluntary. I believe that given the proper climate the vast majority of people will treat each other with respect and kindness, and more importantly, will understand why they need to behave in this way.
I agree wholeheartedly, however, I think that this utopian view while laudible is a long way off, having said that, many of us in the west take this state of affairs for granted, we do actually, for the most part, live like this already.

Quote:
Which is the better situation, a society where people voluntarily treat each other kindly, or a society where kindness is compulsory?
The first of course, but both would be better than some of the alternatives on offer.

Quote:
Alas, life involves death and it always will
Why alas? death is what makes life so sweet!

Quote:
Despite what they tell you, no government can make life completely safe, and look at all the freedoms that are lost in the attempt to do so.
I'm not sure who 'they' are unless you mean 'the government', and yes I agree that freedoms are being lost at an alarming rate. Many of the freedoms that have taken centuries to win have evaporated in a frenzy of panic. Governments find it much easier to control the population when they are in a state of fear, so they will do as much as they can to keep us in this state. Both your leader and mine are guilty of blatant lying to their own people. The biggest surprise to me is that the people are so fearful, they didn't kick them out as soon as it became apparent.

We've strayed a bit from 'the sword ban' but I guess there is still a link.

Anyway, I've just got a couple of Video's of O'Sensei that I haven't seen yet. So I'm off to watch them, the world will have to go on without me putting it right for a while.

Cheers
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-13-2006, 06:24 PM   #30
Mark Freeman
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Re: sword ban?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
we could always give them more explosives... when no more wanted to blow themselves up... problem solved... could take a while though...
It's a solution Edwin, but a pretty messy one

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Old 02-13-2006, 07:20 PM   #31
Edwin Neal
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Re: sword ban?

yeah and noisy too...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-13-2006, 07:43 PM   #32
Mark Freeman
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Re: sword ban?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
yeah and noisy too...
You could always invest in an ear plug manufacturer, a win win situation, there

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-14-2006, 12:12 AM   #33
ChrisHein
 
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Re: sword ban?

I agree, it's your right to not believe being armed is good for you, and I believe it's your right to choose to be unarmed, but I also believe it's your right to be armed if you choose, as well as every other living humans. I don't think anyone should be armed if they don't' want to be, but I'd rather the government let me choose if I like it or not.

-Chris Hein
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Old 02-14-2006, 04:00 AM   #34
Michael Varin
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Re: sword ban?

No problem, Mark.

My idea was so simple that it was easy to gloss over. I said, "I maintain that if the people of these nations were introduced to liberty, personal responsibility, and small government we wouldn't even have these problems!"

My solution was plain old freedom, and the only economic system that goes along with it -- the free market. I don't have my head in the clouds. I know that there are many places in the world that, due to religion, tradition, or despotism, will be resistant to these ideas. I'm not saying that I'm going to waltz in there with my little economics book and a sermon on a free society. Call me optimistic, call me old-fashioned, or just call me dumb, but I do believe it.

Humans have to have a chance to transform themselves, to try their luck and either succeed or fail.

It's like aiki. The free market harmonizes with the energy of the universe. It's fluid, it's right on time, it delivers what is needed. Government is like an aikidoka who engages his conscious mind TOO much. It's always one step behind, anticipating, using to much force then having it backfire. Government programs are like a bad uke. Always believing that they KNOW what is good for nage, what he can and can't do, so they use a light grip, hesitate in the middle of a strike, or veer to one side (market distortions), but all this does is hamper nage's training making him ineffective AND resentful because life never pulls its punches.

You may have heard O Sensei say on one of your new videos, "Don't worry about your fellow man. First work on yourself, then your city, then your country, and then the world." The ironic thing is that if everyone just works on themselves the other three are taken care of.

In my town, in public places, there are trash cans every 20 to 400 feet, yet you still see litter. Government solutions to this problem would be increase fines for littering, form a task force to determine the cause, require business owners to provide more trash cans, pass the new 'Habitable Cities' spending bill, and hire clean up crews. Guess what. There will still be litter.

Another solution is to teach people from a very early age why they would choose not to defile the place that they live, the place that has offered the very means of existence. Teach them cause and effect. Let them discover the consequences of their actions. Lead by example. It's not a quick fix, but a true change. No politician can jump around looking good shouting about how much money he threw at the problem, but the goal is achieved with minimal annoyance.

Liberty, personal responsibility, and small government -- they are a package deal.

You can never teach personal responsibility with Big Brother deciding everything that you can and cannot do. It's like government is the parent and you are the child.

There is a variety of Chinese bamboo that must be watered for 5 years before it sprouts, but then will grow 90 feet in a couple of months. Weeds are easy to grow, but never impressive.

Michael
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Old 02-14-2006, 05:20 AM   #35
Mark Freeman
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Re: sword ban?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
I agree, it's your right to not believe being armed is good for you, and I believe it's your right to choose to be unarmed, but I also believe it's your right to be armed if you choose, as well as every other living humans. I don't think anyone should be armed if they don't' want to be, but I'd rather the government let me choose if I like it or not.

-Chris Hein
Chris,

Nuff said, we can agree to disagree,
cheers,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-14-2006, 06:28 AM   #36
Mark Freeman
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Re: sword ban?

Michael,
Quote:
My idea was so simple that it was easy to gloss over. I said, "I maintain that if the people of these nations were introduced to liberty, personal responsibility, and small government we wouldn't even have these problems!"

My solution was plain old freedom, and the only economic system that goes along with it -- the free market. I don't have my head in the clouds. I know that there are many places in the world that, due to religion, tradition, or despotism, will be resistant to these ideas. I'm not saying that I'm going to waltz in there with my little economics book and a sermon on a free society. Call me optimistic, call me old-fashioned, or just call me dumb, but I do believe it.
There is nothing old fashioned or dumb about your proposal, there is a huge amount of optimism in there though. As much as I agree with and support the idea ( you've definitely got my vote, but I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want it )
I'm not sure you fully realise what you/we are up against.
Personal responsibility relies on education, and the ability to think freely, to be able to question 'everything'. You can only really act with responsibility when you are able to think things through, and are able to understand the consequenses of your actions.
Repressive regimes, cultures and religions do not want people questioning everything thats done. It doesn't fit in with their agendas. A population of free thinkers is a beautiful and scary thing, they are unlikely to do what you want them to!!
To raise a generation ready to take personal responsibility seriously, we would have to teach children that this is what they are here to learn, and we are going to give them the thinking skill neccessary to make it possible.
Now, as much as I respect each individuals right to worship whatever they choose. I can't see the devout of the world allowing their children to grow up in this atmosphere, their power base would be eroded too quickly. Children born into a religion are 'told' what 'is' before they are able to comprehend, some break free when the reach an age to think for themselves, some remain happy in the certainty of tradition, passed down over centuries.
This erosion has happened in Europe as it is a majority secular society, but the balance is shifting as more 'believers' migrate to live more prosperous lives in a relatively peaceful and 'free' place.
The rise of evangelicalism in your own country, must dent your optimism slightly?
Quote:
It's like aiki. The free market harmonizes with the energy of the universe. It's fluid, it's right on time, it delivers what is needed. Government is like an aikidoka who engages his conscious mind TOO much. It's always one step behind, anticipating, using to much force then having it backfire. Government programs are like a bad uke. Always believing that they KNOW what is good for nage, what he can and can't do, so they use a light grip, hesitate in the middle of a strike, or veer to one side (market distortions), but all this does is hamper nage's training making him ineffective AND resentful because life never pulls its punches.
I like your aiki analogy, but I'm not sure I share your total faith in 'the free market', I can see that 'if' all consumers reach the optimal stage of being 'educated free thinkers' then every purchase would be thought through and 'ethical purchase' wouldn't be a fringe activity, it would just be what we do. The Reagan/Thatcher mantra that the free market will regulate itself, has lead to more inequality in both of our countries, and some of the examples of unfettered corporate greed are stomach churning in their scale and a blight on all our houses. Some Global corporations are now larger, richer and more influential than many third world countries, and they, like Governments work best when people passively consume their wares. So my opinion is that the pure free market cannot really be self regulating until the all the consumers are free thinking enough to act responsibly, and as the majority of the worlds population are still living on a pittance a day, most of them do not have the luxury of choice. I support the moves that are being made via the WTO to open up markets to the third world producers, but some of the supporters of 'free trade' have some of the most restrictive trade barriers!
Quote:
You may have heard O Sensei say on one of your new videos, "Don't worry about your fellow man. First work on yourself, then your city, then your country, and then the world." The ironic thing is that if everyone just works on themselves the other three are taken care of.
Personally I'd like to see a dojo in every school, and a school in every village, and every child in school, It's not much to ask is it?

Quote:
Liberty, personal responsibility, and small government -- they are a package deal.
I accept it's merits, do you have any examples for me?

My own counter examples are countries like Norway and Sweden, they seem to have a high standard of living for virtually all the poulation, state aid is generous, education standards are very high, the population are pretty free thinking, liberal and tolerant, and Government plays quite large role in all of this, and the people don't feel the need to arm themselves against each other or their govt.
Quote:
There is a variety of Chinese bamboo that must be watered for 5 years before it sprouts, but then will grow 90 feet in a couple of months. Weeds are easy to grow, but never impressive.
Weeds are just flowers growing were you don't want them. and some weeds I came across in my youth were how do I say this without incriminating myself, 'very impressive'

Interesting dialog Michael, thanks,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-14-2006, 01:59 PM   #37
ChrisHein
 
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Re: sword ban?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote:

It's like aiki. The free market harmonizes with the energy of the universe. It's fluid, it's right on time, it delivers what is needed. Government is like an aikidoka who engages his conscious mind TOO much. It's always one step behind, anticipating, using to much force then having it backfire. Government programs are like a bad uke. Always believing that they KNOW what is good for nage, what he can and can't do, so they use a light grip, hesitate in the middle of a strike, or veer to one side (market distortions), but all this does is hamper nage's training making him ineffective AND resentful because life never pulls its punches.

Michael
Thats one of the slickest things I've read on here.

Mark,
I don't think anyone disagrees with you that Education is a beautiful thing. Education can solve most of the worlds problems, and make us all happier wealthier more textured people. But your government (not just "yours" but everyone's) has to quit trying to do things for you, in order for that to happen. It's everyone thinking they know what's best for others that is the real problem. If you think you know what is good for someone else, then you make the other person do what you want, (you were only trying to help them) and it turns out you were wrong, you've not only hurt them, you've also taken away their ability to find their own path, a path that may have been perfect for them. I agree that children need watching after until they become a certain age, but after that age, making them do anything that is not something they themselves decided to do, is wrong. Arming yourself should be your choice, so should all other matters concerning your person (it's your inherent human right). We only need laws to make you accountable for harming others, if you harm yourself that has a swift price that you will pay immediately.

-Chris Hein

Last edited by ChrisHein : 02-14-2006 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 02-15-2006, 10:12 AM   #38
Mark Freeman
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Re: sword ban?

Chris,

On the day after my government has just voted to ban smoking in all public places, I find it hard to disagree with any of what you have said. Although I am going to stick to my guns on gun control.

The thing is, we live in countries that call themselves 'Democratic' which means that supposedly the majority view holds sway. Never mind the fact that both your government and mine were elected by only appprox 25% of the poulation!
Libertarianism allows people to do what they wish as long as they don't hurt others (correct me if I'm wrong ). All drugs must be legalised, all consenting sexual unions too, a womans right to choose is just that, Smoking tobacco in a public place!, the list is probably very long, and I don't have a problem with it, do you? or do libertarians have limits on what people can choose to do with themselves?
However, in the UK one of the most civilised thing that has ever happened here, was the formation in the 1940's of the National Health Service. Health provision for every member of the poulation regardless of ability to pay!! A 'big government' run scheme that is not without it's critics or faults, but a very fair system, that I for one, am proud to contribute to.
Your own countries health provision is more un-equal, those with the money/insurance can get some of the best treatment available in the planet, those without can't. How would the extreme libertarian deal with this issue alone?

gotta go, aikido practice calls...

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-15-2006, 02:31 PM   #39
deepsoup
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Re: sword ban?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
However, in the UK one of the most civilised thing that has ever happened here, was the formation in the 1940's of the National Health Service.
Hear hear. I'll raise a glass to Nye Bevan with you.

Quote:
those with the money/insurance can get some of the best treatment available in the planet, those without can't. How would the extreme libertarian deal with this issue alone?
By bragging that the poor have the freedom to die. (I kid you not.)

Sean
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Old 02-17-2006, 06:15 AM   #40
Michael Varin
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Re: sword ban?

Mark,

I'll admit...some weeds are impressive.

I'm glad to see that you are entertaining the idea that Liberty is the most valuable thing that one can possess. If you continue with a truly open mind you will see why the right to self-defense (which includes the right to carry a firearm) cannot be separated from other essential rights. This is not to say that you personally should ever feel obligated to own or carry one.

I'd like to point out that the studies that were and are still used to justify smoking bans (at least in the US) are perfect examples of how statistics can be manipulated to achieve a desired affect. These studies proved nothing. They determined that exposure to second hand smoke has no statistically significant effects. By the way, I hate smoking, and don't recommend it, but I would never suggest banning it. Here is a quote from Thomas Paine, "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."

Basically, there are no limits on what a person can do with himself or his property unless that person agreed to some sort of contract. Initiation of force and the threat to initiate force are unacceptable.

I assure you that contrary to what Sean said most Libertarians are not cold-hearted people. In fact, most Libertarians are opposed to welfare, because in their view giving someone enough to barely sustain themselves while robbing them of the ability to remove themselves (in many cases actively holding them there) from their current situation in unimaginably cruel.

One of the biggest obstacles to true freedom is that we are so used to the established way of doing things that we can't conceive of any alternatives.

I'm sure that you are familiar with the problems associated with rationing of medical resources. Many times socialized medicine seems good, it seems fair, but we have to be careful with fair, because we often land on mediocre. Libertarians support completely removing government from medicine. An environment such as this increases innovation which decreases costs. In the US, some predict that costs would drop by roughly 80% by removing government regulations. That would mean almost everyone could afford medical treatment. Also, since government interference drives up the price of insurance, removing it would allow more people to purchase insurance for catastrophic medical treatment. Don't forget that Libertarians support private charities which can offer help.

Do you want government telling you how much medical treatment you need, whether it is more or less than you want?

Michael
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Old 02-17-2006, 08:39 AM   #41
Mark Freeman
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Re: sword ban?

Michael,
Quote:
I'm glad to see that you are entertaining the idea that Liberty is the most valuable thing that one can possess. If you continue with a truly open mind you will see why the right to self-defense (which includes the right to carry a firearm) cannot be separated from other essential rights. This is not to say that you personally should ever feel obligated to own or carry one.
I may be open to persuasion on some points but you'll have to do a lot more to convince me that having a society awash with hand guns represents the highest level of 'freedom'.
I possibly could be persuaded if in the unlikely event that all humans had evolved to the level where they do not want to harm others to further their own selfish ends had arrived. But as has been said before we are along way from that day.
I agree that the theoretical right to be armed sounds good, but I can't believe that a society with guns is better than a society without.

I agree with you that the use of statistics can be manipulated to achieve a desired effect, so your highlighting this undermines your own use of them in supporting the position regarding removal of government from health provision.

I feel you are supporting an idea that is, while philosophically desirable, is not going to happen for any time soon. It relies on so many factors being 'right' especially in regard to human behaviour that I just can't see how it is going to come about.
Your own country has a great many people opposed to the idea of true personal freedom based on the fact that some of the things people 'choose' to do is against their god's laws. That is going to be a hard group to convince.
The people at the bottom of the economic pile, and there are many of them even in a wealthy country like the US, will also be hard to convince that all safety nets be removed and they are now free to make their own way ( again a good idea, if they have a clear route out of poverty and the motivation but how are you going to sell it to them? )
If you are unable to work, through disability, or illness, how do you cope in the country of 'liberty'?
If you can't afford even the reduced rate of 'Private health insurance' what do you do? Private health insurance is there to make a profit for it's shareholders first and foremost, they will charge as much as the market will stand, they will not feel obliged to provide affordable plans to the very poorest unless they are forced to!! ( and who is going to do that?
Quote:
I'm sure that you are familiar with the problems associated with rationing of medical resources. Many times socialized medicine seems good, it seems fair, but we have to be careful with fair, because we often land on mediocre
Mediocre healthcare is better than no healthcare, ask anyone who doesn't have any.
If we are strong and able, fine, good for us, but just because we are today, doesn't mean we aren't going to be struck with some debilitating illness tomorrow. If this should happen the concept of 'freedom' means little if we can't afford private medical treatment.
I know I am repating myself when I say I think the creation of our National Health Service was a high point of our (GB) civilisation. How a society looks after it's weak and vunerable members is a reflection on how far they are 'civilised'.

My government is too heavy handed in trying to protect it's citizens and is removing rights which many of us are not happy about.
But I'll happily have a little bet with you ( say a $1) that neither of our goverments will be out of the healthcare business in the next 30 years. My money's safe on the UK side, and you'll have to work hard on your side to win your buck.
The gun laws will not be repealed here in that time either. We are not 'anti liberty' here, we just don't see the point of hand guns, period.

We are historically allies ( post war of independence! ), and there should be plenty of room for differing philosophies in a free world.
I notice you haven't given me a counter example to my Norway/Sweden quote, do they exist? or like deep green environmentalism is it just a great idea waiting not to happen?

Cheers
Mark

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Old 02-17-2006, 01:28 PM   #42
Michael O'Brien
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Re: sword ban?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
I may be open to persuasion on some points but you'll have to do a lot more to convince me that having a society awash with hand guns represents the highest level of 'freedom'.
I possibly could be persuaded if in the unlikely event that all humans had evolved to the level where they do not want to harm others to further their own selfish ends had arrived. But as has been said before we are along way from that day.
I agree that the theoretical right to be armed sounds good, but I can't believe that a society with guns is better than a society without.
Mark
Since this has drifted away from the discussion of swords I'll throw in an interesting statistic on gun ownership.

In Kennesaw Georgia law makers passed a law that it was mandatory for every household to own at least one gun and ammunition.
(Of course this led to predictions of this town returning to the days of the "wild west" with shootings daily in the street)
In reality what happened is that the crime rate in that city has dropped 89% since the law went into effect.

When law abiding citizens have the right to own and carry guns without fear crime goes down because criminals like easy victims.

Washington, DC has the strictest and harshest gun control laws in the USA and they also have the highest violent crime rates. Why? Because criminals know that the law abiding citizens are unarmed and unable to protect themselves.

Harmony does not mean that there are no conflicts,
for the dynamic spiral of existence embraces both extremes.
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Old 02-18-2006, 07:25 AM   #43
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
United Kingdom
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Re: sword ban?

Mike,

interesting statistic, but taken on it's own without looking at the relative demographic of, Kennesaw, and DC, not that usefull. What are the population densities, poverty levels etc etc. I don't know about Kennesaw, it doesn't sound like a large city to me. If it is a small, relatively wealthy, rural community, where there were 2 murders last year, I less murder, is a drop in the murder rate of 50%.

The Swiss have a very high gun ownership rate, and also very low crime, but they are also per capita one of the wealthiest around.

I'm quite happy for the US citizenry to collectively agree to arm every man woman and child, your choice ( but not in the case of Kenneshaw! ).

It won't happen in the UK and I'm quite happy with that too.

Back to the swords...

regards,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-21-2006, 03:37 AM   #44
Michael Varin
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 567
United_States
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Re: sword ban?

Hey Mark,

You're sharp. You've got me with the statistics. Damn! They are tempting to use.

You asked what an extreme Libertarian view on health care was and, to the best of my ability, I told you. You would almost certainly win that bet. I never said it would come fast or easily, but how difficult something is to achieve shouldn't be of concern, only its worthiness. If everyone agrees that something is impossible it most certainly will be.

There is plenty of room for differing philosophies. My point was never to prove that I'm right and you're wrong. Rather, I wanted to have an interesting discussion about what is possible. And I've enjoyed it. I like this quote, and find it applicable.

"In every country where man is free to think and to speak, differences of opinion will arise from difference of perception, and the imperfection of reason; but these differences when permitted, as in this happy country, to purify themselves by free discussion, are but as passing clouds overspreading our land transiently and leaving our horizon more bright and serene."
Thomas Jefferson.

Michael
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Old 02-21-2006, 05:30 AM   #45
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: sword ban?

Hi Michael,
Quote:
You're sharp. You've got me with the statistics. Damn! They are tempting to use.
We all do it, and we all usually get hoisted by our own petard.
Quote:
There is plenty of room for differing philosophies. My point was never to prove that I'm right and you're wrong. Rather, I wanted to have an interesting discussion about what is possible. And I've enjoyed it. I like this quote, and find it applicable.
I've also enjoyed the debate, but I do believe that we engage in these things precisely because we believe in the 'rightness' of our views, and it is difficult not to try and disprove something if you do not see the 'rightness' in it, no?. Mind you belief is very shakey ground to base 'rightness' on.
I think some of these interactions that happen in this cyber dojo are like learning aikido, when we start out in the attack or defence of some statement made, it tends to be all push and shove. Once the rediculousness of this 'fighting' becomes apparent, there is a move towards, finding common ground, possibly leading the 'opponent/partner to a more agreeable exchange.
Obviously our practice in the cyber dojo is not a direct reflection of our work in the soma dojo, but I guess if we all tried to be a little more aiki in our textspeak, then there would be less 'argument' ( I absolutely put myself at the top of the guilty list! )
I always enjoy reading the quotes of your country's founding fathers, they certainly seemed to be inspired clear thinkers who were able to affect many generations positively to live up to their worthy goals. Where are the great men when we most need them?
Our lives are being adversely affected by small minded individuals who use fear as a means to power and control. But I guess the oness is on the people to realise this and replace them with better people.
Quote:
You would almost certainly win that bet.
I'm quite happy for you send me the $ now
You may have to throw a provocative statement at me to get me going again.

Cheers,
Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 02-23-2006, 03:05 AM   #46
Jory Boling
 
Jory Boling's Avatar
Dojo: A.K.I.,Misakikai Dojo
Location: Yokosuka, Japan
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 192
United_States
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Re: sword ban?

sword ban? i think only samurai should be allowed to carry swords.

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