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Old 02-05-2006, 03:31 AM   #1
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Freaky! The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Oooh, scary! Just when you stake these eevel myths of wmd's, they risw up again, like a baad vampire-movie sequel (or, at the drop in popularity for the war).

RUMSFELD: WMD MAY STILL BE FOUND

Quote:
US Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said that weapons of mass destruction may still be found in Iraq.

"I don't know what we'll find in the months and years ahead. It could be anything,'" Rumsfeld said according to ABC News.

He was speaking to the National Press Club.

There are those who believe that US President George W. Bush was correct in saying there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq under the Saddam Hussein two decades-plus murder rule. Recall that numerous Democrats prior to Mr. Bush's election to the Oval Office said the same. Further, many said the same after Mr. Bush moved into the White House.

Now we have proof

Please, is there anyone out there (besides you, John...and, of course: the yes-man writer) who still swallows this nonsense? Mother of mercy,,,is THIS the end of the Bush-faithful choir???
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:53 AM   #2
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
is there anyone out there ...who still swallows this nonsense?
Very poor debate tactic, Neil, belittling anyone who takes the other side of an argument from what you believe. Is belittling people part of what you call "Aikido"? And you supposedly "teach" Aikido, don't you? So how do you justify constantly unbalanced politics against the idea of "balance" that epitomizes the whole backdrop of the cosmology behine Aikido? Just curious.

Mike
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Old 02-05-2006, 12:31 PM   #3
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Very poor debate tactic, Neil, belittling anyone who takes the other side of an argument from what you believe.
It's not an argument when there is no "opponent." Frankly, I was surprised anyone responded, so soon, if at all.

And besides, anyone who DOES believe this stuff is in the same position as a customer who just bought his 4th lemon from a shifty used-car salesman: fool you once, shame on me.

Fool you more than 100,000 x....!!!!! (see my sig) Shame on you.

Quote:
Is belittling people part of what you call "Aikido"?
No: belittling people is a poor attempt to buttress one's one meager beliefs ahead of others'. But since I wasn't, this does not apply to my ideas of Aikido.

I was belittling the idea that wmd's exist: not the persons who believe in them. Big difference. Nice try, Mike: no cigar. Next.

Quote:
And you supposedly "teach" Aikido, don't you?
And you're supposedly qualified to question my teaching, are you??

Quote:
So how do you justify constantly unbalanced politics against the idea of "balance" that epitomizes the whole backdrop of the cosmology behine Aikido?
Huh?? Is this one of those "so when did you stop beating your wife" questions??

ROFL: whatever "unbalanced politics" is (is it supposed to mean laughing at people who still believe in this nonsense?? Does it mean that I should pre-empt everything I say, with 'well this is only my opinion: there are other views besides mine'?? ), it has very little to do with my views of "balance" in Aikido.

If there WERE balance in the general debate: we'd have a media expressing the full range of political views, questioning the feeble strawmen that this Administration is putting forth as legal justification, not silly soundbites for the gullible to swallow.

"Balance" would mean a full, reasonable debate about the reasons for going in, and staying in, an illegal occupation, not the same fatuous and silly lies, poured into Joe-public's ear, every single day, on the media, with little-to-no contention or question. Where were the anti-war sources on the media, when we went to war in '03? All I saw were the military, "embedded" on the media-networks!

Balance, AT THE VERY LEAST, would mean an independent, Senatorial commission investigating our reasons for going into Iraq and examining our continuing "mission" there, not blindly plunging ahead at funding our folly to the tune of $100,000 a minute!

So please: take your patently transparent attempts to turn this simple comment about the level of uneducation in world affairs amongst the American public, into some kind of smear against people who believe this nonsense.

Lemme break it down for you in a nice, simple formula:

Ridiculing a belief DOES NOT = Ridiculing a person

Quote:
Just curious.

Mike
I doubt it. Sounds like your mind's already made up.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 02-05-2006 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 02-05-2006, 04:29 PM   #4
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
I was belittling the idea that wmd's exist: not the persons who believe in them.
Since your message is just 2 away from this one, anyone can read it and decide if you're dissembling, Neil.
Quote:
And you're supposedly qualified to question my teaching, are you?? .
I dunno. Do you teach a martial art? If you do, I am. Do you doubt it?

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-05-2006, 05:57 PM   #5
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posts: 225
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Since your message is just 2 away from this one, anyone can read it and decide if you're dissembling, Neil.
How nice, for them. Of course, they can also decide, if I'm not. >shrug<

Quote:
I dunno. Do you teach a martial art?
As a matter of fact...yes.

Quote:
If you do, I am. Do you doubt it?

Mike Sigman
Whoah!!!! Mike Sigman professes to possess AMAZING POWERS OF EXTRASENSORY PERCEPTION!!! Yes, Mike KNOWS exactly how "good" I am as a martial arts teacher, MERELY by what he sees on his monitor!!!

Yeah, Mike: I SERIOUSLY doubt it. I doubt that you can know jack about what sort of teacher I am, merely by what you read. You know jack about my experience, philosophy, style of Aikido, training, or teacher's (heck! You've never even MET me!)...and you're all ready to lecture me about my views of "balance."

And, really: your experience in the martial arts is irrelevant. Let's take Steven Seagal, as an example. Now, I feel comfortable commenting on Mr. Seagal's Aikido (excellent, fast), his acting skills (ahem), or even the occasional faux pas, in the public eye (*shrug*).

What I am NOT qualified to comment on, is his ability as a teacher, as I have no experience of it.

But maybe some of us really are telepathic. I make no claims...you?

Last edited by Neil Mick : 02-05-2006 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 02-05-2006, 06:01 PM   #6
Mike Sigman
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
But maybe some of us really are telepathic. I make no claims...you?
No, I mean that I can judge you as a martial artist. I asked if you doubt it. You apparently do, which brings in a doubt to my abilities, so...


Mike
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Old 02-05-2006, 06:04 PM   #7
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
No, I mean that I can judge you as a martial artist. I asked if you doubt it.
Mike
Wrong, Mike. You took me to task, for my perceptions of balance in light of being an Aikido instructor.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
And you supposedly "teach" Aikido, don't you?
Now, who's dissembling?

Last edited by Neil Mick : 02-05-2006 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 02-05-2006, 09:55 PM   #8
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

WMD actually exist. The U.S. has them, Russia has them. China has them. Pakistan has them. India has them. Israel has them. And I am sure there are other countries besides. There are 200 countries in the world, and many of them we hear nothing about. It is kind of nuts. In gassho.
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Old 02-05-2006, 10:52 PM   #9
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Quote:
Mark Uttech wrote:
WMD actually exist. The U.S. has them, Russia has them. China has them. Pakistan has them. India has them. Israel has them. And I am sure there are other countries besides. There are 200 countries in the world, and many of them we hear nothing about. It is kind of nuts. In gassho.
Oh come on! And I bet you believed in the boogey-man, when you were small!

Yes, Virginia, wmd's DO exist. And the reason why we still have them in the US is mostly thanks to Clinton.
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Old 02-06-2006, 03:36 AM   #10
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Oh come on! And I bet you believed in the boogey-man, when you were small!
I think you need to re-read the post, Neil.
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Old 02-06-2006, 12:53 PM   #11
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote:
I think you need to re-read the post, Neil.
I was kidding...just so you know.

(oh, btw: check out all the links in my new, updated, shiny sig!)
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Old 02-06-2006, 04:57 PM   #12
Hogan
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Hmmm, maybe they HAVE been found...

"Saddam's WMD have been found; New evidence unveils chemical, biological, nuclear, ballistic arms"
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=38213

"Saddam's WMD hidden in Syria, says Iraq survey chief"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html

"UN Admits Saddam Had WMD"
http://www.alphapatriot.com/home/arc...am_had_wmd.php

"A senior Syrian journalist reports Iraq WMD located in three Syrian sites"
http://www.2la.org/syria/iraq-wmd.php

And most damning...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159...books&v=glance
A former Iraqi General (General Georges Sada, former Military Advisor to Saddam Hussein in Iraq).


But... BUT, given all that - given that who in their right mind would not prove they didn't have WMD's (if they really didn't) in order to avoid war and/or death, and given that he in fact had them (we all saw their use) and then all of the sudden were gone (where did they go, you Uncle Saddam supporters?), then perhaps this article would explain it all away...

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1271
"Suppose for an instant that no weapons of mass destruction ever turn up in Iraq. Of course, they might well still appear, but let's imagine that Saddam Hussein did not have an advanced program for chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, as well as the missiles to carry them.

What would that imply?

President Bush's Democratic opponents say it renders the decision to go to war a "fraud" or "hyped." But they miss the point, for there was indeed massive and undisputed evidence to indicate that the Iraqi regime was building WMD.

Defectors and other Iraqi sources nearly all agreed on his WMD program. The actions of Saddam's government - fending off United Nations weapons inspectors tooth and nail, hiding evidence, forgoing opportunities to have the economic sanctions lifted - all confirmed its existence.

Nor is that all: Rich Lowry of National Review has shown that the entire Clinton administration leadership - as well as the United Nations and the French and German governments - believed in the existence of Iraqi WMD.

If no WMD exist, the real mystery is not how the Bush administration made the same mistake everyone else did [HOGAN EDIT - NOTICE HOW THE WORD 'LIE' DID NOT COME INTO THE DEBATE = HE SEEMS TO KNOW THE DEFINITION]; the mystery is why Saddam created the false impression that he had them. Why did he put himself into the bizarre position of simultaneously pretending to build WMD and pretending to hide his nonexistent weapons?

Presumably, his goal was to enhance his position. As The Washington Post's Walter Pincus and Dana Priest speculate, he "may have put in place a double-deception program aimed at convincing the world and his own people that he was more of a threat than he actually was."

At a certain point, however, Saddam's charade became self-defeating. Pretending to possess WMD meant continued economic sanctions that deprived him of billions of dollars a year, debilitated his economic base and hollowed out his conventional arsenal. Worse (from his point of view), the fakery spurred his removal from power, the execution of his sons, and his own likely capture or demise.

Why would a leader who reached the top of a slippery pole through supreme guile, persist in so counterproductive a policy? His biographers, Efraim Karsh and Inari Rautsi, describe Saddam Hussein's characteristics as "obsessive caution, endless patience, tenacious perseverance, impressive manipulative skills and utter ruthlessness." How could he not have cut his losses, acknowledged the nonexistence of his WMD program, and thereby have saved his dictatorship?

This mistake can best be explained as the result of Saddam inhabiting the uniquely self-indulgent circumstance of the totalitarian autocrat, with its two key qualities:

* Hubris: The absolute ruler can do anything he wants, so he thinks himself unbounded in his power.
* Ignorance: The all-wise ruler brooks no contradiction, so his aides, fearing for their lives, tell him only what he wants to hear.

Both these incapacities worsen with time and the tyrant becomes increasingly removed from reality. His whims, eccentricities and fantasies dominate state policy. The result is a pattern of monumental mistakes.

Two historical examples make this point. Hitler was winning World War II until he insisted, against the muted advice of his generals, to begin a two-front war by attacking the Soviet Union. Stalin responded to the buildup of Nazi forces along his border by pretending the whole thing was not taking place.

Hitler's mistake is seen as one of the turning points of World War II and a key reason for Germany's defeat. Stalin's error caused the deaths of many millions of his subjects. The Nazi-Soviet war was the largest, most brutal, and most deadly in human history, and it resulted primarily from the hubris and ignorance of two dictators.
[HOGAN EDIT - BE CAREFUL NEIL, CAN YOU READ THESE TWO PARA.'S WITHOUT CLAIMING WWII ARGUMENTS MEAN NOTHING? YOU CAN LEARN FROM HISTORY].

Saddam Hussein already has a comparable record of mistakes (recall his disastrous invasions of Iran and Kuwait), so clinging to a nonexistent WMD program even as it led to his own perdition should come as no surprise. We on the outside can only imagine the ambitions and distortions that prompted his faulty decisions.

The propensity of totalitarian demigods to self-inflicted wounds has direct implications for dealing with North Korea, Libya, and other rogue states. Their rulers' vanity and isolation can lead toward a catastrophe that makes no sense to the outside world, but which has a vast capacity to do harm."

Last edited by Hogan : 02-06-2006 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 02-06-2006, 11:35 PM   #13
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

First, I gotta say, hats off to you, John. This is the most extensive research that I've seen you produce. That being said: I only have one comment:

If only these sources were credible.

Let's take a look at them:

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Hmmm, maybe they HAVE been found...

"Saddam's WMD have been found; New evidence unveils chemical, biological, nuclear, ballistic arms"
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=38213
World Net Daily?? Well, they do a good job of hiding their bias, but you can clearly see an anti-Syrian ( and anti-Muslim) slant in the titles of their other articles:

"Syria behind torching of Danish Buildings;" "Shock a Muslim with the Truth!" (love to be a fly on the wall of THAT conversation); or "Mohammed Ali's REAL Roots!"

Come on: these titles read like a National Enquirer! Sorry, but I'd sooner believe the NYT reporting on the Easter Bunny passing on wmd's before these guys. next.

Quote:
"Saddam's WMD hidden in Syria, says Iraq survey chief"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html
OK, better. The Telegraph is a respectable publication. But here we have an article about David Kay, former UN weapons inspector and head of the Iraq Survey Group, Bush's task force to search for wmd's in Iraq. Even though he eventualy resigned from the ISG because they didn't find anything...SUDDENLY!! Kay knows information about Syria's cooperation of Hussein's wmd programme. Funny, I remember being told that there WAS no evidence of a wmd programme...it was shut down in the '90's, after the UN weapons inspectors discovered it.

Could it be that Dr. Kay's "sudden" revelations are less of a visionary insight, and more of an attempt to

Quote:
intensify pressure on President Bashar Assad to clarify the extent of his co-operation with Saddam's regime and details of Syria's WMD programme.
as your own source suggests? Stay tuned.

OK, so what do we have? So far, we have a source with a BIG axe, and one weapons inspector in the pay of Bush, ditto-heading the anti-Syrian war-rhetoric. The prognosis for wmd's is not good.

Quote:
Source? AlphaPatriot.

Whoah.

AlphaPatriot??? OK, so this guy professes to be a "reformed Conservative," with more than a few choice words about Liberals. So what, right? He's entitled to his silly ideas and beliefs. Anyone can have a correct observation, no matter their stripe. So, let's just examine 3 of his assertions, to see if he's got a point.

Quote:
Summing up:
We know that the infamous "16 words" were true, verified by both British and French intelligence.
Oh, we do, do we?? Funny, I never heard of this famous intel (I DID hear of British gov't'l memo's stating that Bush and Blair discussed the bombing of Al Jazeera, but that's another topic). But, on clicking AlphaPatriot's link, I got a "page not found." Hmmm....

Quote:
Way back in January, another U.N. entity, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), discovered 5 pounds of radioactive uranium oxide in a shipment of scrap metal at Rotterdam harbor. The metal came from Iraq via a dealer in Jordan.
Beware of people who tell you 1/2 truths. This, from AlphaPatriot's own source, USA Today:

Quote:
Yellowcake, or uranium oxide, could be used to build a nuclear weapon, although it would take tons of the substance refined with sophisticated technology to harvest enough uranium for a single bomb.
So, all this talk about radioactive materials found ignores the obvious: that there simply wasn't the enrichment materials and technology available to produce a nuc. It wouldn't be available, for years. Cute bit of propaganda, there.

Quote:
We know that Iraq had at least 1.77 metric tons of low-enriched uranium and roughly 1,000 highly radioactive sources -- because we now have them stored in Tennessee! Materials that could have been used to manufacture a ?dirty? radiological bomb or even support a nuclear weapons program.
Or even, to be spread all over the crops of innocent people!! Oh, brother...!

Hypotheticals and heresay. So far, that's all we've got.

Moving on...

Quote:
"A senior Syrian journalist reports Iraq WMD located in three Syrian sites"
http://www.2la.org/syria/iraq-wmd.php
Oh, come on, John!! This site is less a place of information, than an extended rant-page against Syria! I mean, look at the text at the top:

"Syria a Place of Terror!!!"

What a relief it is, knowing that we're receiving all of our news from a relatively unbiased, objective source, eh?

(NEIL'S EDIT: If pattern runs true, here's where Johnny-boy will accuse me of being a Syria-lover. Please: while there is much to scorn about Syria (not least, their policies of torture): I don't put much trust in a generic website that is short on verification ("a Senior Syrian Journalist, etc..." uh huh...riiight. John, I URGE you to scan the Nat'l Enquirer's, next time you shop. You'll see LOADS of articles with words like "Scientists Discover Two-Headed Baby," or "Leading Experts Prove Global Warming a Hoax," but all those "experts" prove zilch), and long on accusation. Let's see a few more facts, a little less innuendo.

Next!)

Quote:
And most damning...
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159...books&v=glance
A former Iraqi General (General Georges Sada, former Military Advisor to Saddam Hussein in Iraq).
Oh, yeah: this is REAL damning...if only there were a synopsis or SOMETHING telling us what the book is about! And please: we've been here before. Ever hear of Achmad Chalabi? You know, the fellow who fed phony Pentagon intel to Judith Miller, who dutifully echoed it back, in the press?

Or, the guy who came over in '98, called himself "Saddam's Bomb-Maker?" He came over and made a lot of false claims about Hussein's war-readiness. Turns out they were utterly false. Hussein Kamel, Saddam's brother-in-law, totally disproved his claims when the former defected (the testimony of Hussein Kamel was the first indication that Hussein had no more wmd's).

But in the lack of any coherent synopsis, I'll go with what one reviewer said:

Quote:
T. Bradford wrote:
Conservative Wishes

As P.T. Barnum said, "there are suckers born every day" and there are some who will knowingly be duped over and over again. This book is a conservative's fantasy of revisionist history. Gen. Sada alledges to have knowledge that three years of international investigations have not found, that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Sada shows no evidence to counter the on-site U.N. inspectors who found no evidence of a reconsituted nuclear program in Iraq nor does he address the absence of any scientists who were knowingly working on the program. Sada does not addresss the obvious, that with the U.S. increasinly intolerant of Saddam and anyone who assist, why would a Syrian regime, already on thin ice with the Bush administration, risk their very existence by hiding nuclear weapons? People who buy in to this still think the world is flat. Bush argued that Iraq presented an eminent threat to the U.S. Even with the fantasies written in this book, Sada adds no evidence to show that the U.S. "was under eminent threat" and thus the rush to war. This book will be found six months from now in libraries near Mother Goose's fairy tales, in the children's section.
I mean, T. Barnum makes the whole point: if there WERE wmd's...why could the US find NO ONE who worked on them? Why did successive teams of Bush-appointee's find squat, in Iraq?

And this is the most important question: why are the question of wmds' existence SUDDENLY reappearing in the media? It's a little too convenient, IMO.

Quote:
But... BUT, given all that
propaganda, prevarication, and dissembling...

Quote:
- given that who in their right mind would not prove they didn't have WMD's (if they really didn't) in order to avoid war and/or death,
Wrong-o, Johnny-boy: you've got the formula in reverse.

wmd's = a delay in a visit from the US war-machine. ...North Korea? Hello?

Quote:
and given that he in fact had them (we all saw their use)
Up until about 1994. After that, sorry...no joy.

Quote:
and then all of the sudden were gone (where did they go, you Uncle Saddam supporters?),
You see what I mean? Ole' Johnny-boy has two buttons, on his political talk-box:

1. US Occupation = Freedom;
2. All people opposed to occupation = Terrorist-lovers, and Dictator supporters (the two are not synonymous. Not that John would realize this, of course...he has a few more developmental milestones to go in political perspective, before he realizes this)

Weeell, John: if you'd bothered to read anything else besides Right-Wing diatribes, you'd realize that Scott Ritter, weapons inspector from '91-'98, already explains what happened:

Quote:
MR. HERSH: One of the things that's overwhelming to me is the notion that everybody believed before March of '03 that Saddam had weapons. This is just urban myth. The fact of the matter is that, in talking to people who worked on the UNSCOM and also in the International Atomic Energy Agency, they were pretty much clear by '97 that there was very little likelihood that Saddam had weapons. And there were many people in our State Department, in the Department of Energy, in the CIA who didn't believe there were weapons. And I think history is going to judge the mass hysteria we had about Saddam and weapons. And one of the questions that keeps on coming up now is why didn't Saddam tell us. Did he tell us?

MR. RITTER: Well, of course he told us. Look, let's be honest, the Iraqis were obligated in 1991 to submit a full declaration listing the totality of their holdings in WMD, and they didn't do this. They lied. They failed to declare a nuclear weapons program, they failed to declare a biological weapons programs, and they under-declared their chemical and ballistic missile capabilities. Saddam Hussein intended to retain a strategic deterrent capability, not only to take care of Iran but also to focus on Israel. What he didn't count on was the tenacity of the inspectors. And very rapidly, by June 1991, we had compelled him into acknowledging that he had a nuclear weapons programs, and we pushed him so hard that by the summer of 1991, in the same way that a drug dealer who has police knocking at his door, flushes drugs down a toilet to get rid of his stash so he could tell the cops, "I don't have any drugs," the Iraqis, not wanting to admit that they lied, flushed their stash down the toilet.

They blew up all their weapons and buried them in the desert, and then tried to maintain the fiction that they had told the truth. And by 1992 they were compelled again, because of the tenacity of the inspectors, to come clean. People ask why didn't Saddam Hussein admit being disarmed? In 1992 they submitted a declaration that said everything's been destroyed, we have nothing left. In 1995 they turned over the totality of their document cache. Again, not willingly, it took years of inspections to pressure them, but the bottom line is by 1995 there were no more weapons in Iraq, there were no more documents in Iraq, there was no more production capability in Iraq because we were monitoring the totality of Iraq's industrial infrastructure with the most technologically advanced, the most intrusive arms control regime in the history of arms control.

And furthermore, the CIA knew this, the British intelligence knew this, Israeli intelligence knew this, German intelligence, the whole world knew this. They weren't going to say that Iraq was disarmed because nobody could say that, but they definitely knew that the Iraqi capability regarding WMD had been reduced to as near to zero as you could bring it, and that Iraq represented a threat to no one when it came to weapons of mass destruction.
Quote:
John H wrote:
then perhaps this article would explain it all away...
You. just. don't. get. it. It was NEVER about wmd. The US forces knowingly targeted civilian infrastructure in '91, to bring Hussein to his knees, just as the CIA suggested. When he didn't: the Sanctions dragged on throughout the '90's, murdering over a million children. The whole mess was another way to squeeze Saddam.


Quote:
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1271
"Suppose for an instant that no weapons of mass destruction ever turn up in Iraq.
Daniel Pipes?? Um, John, I'm beginning to notice a disturbing pattern in your reading selection...

Quote:
Of course, they might well still appear, but let's imagine that Saddam Hussein did not have an advanced program for chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, as well as the missiles to carry them.

What would that imply?

President Bush's Democratic opponents say it renders the decision to go to war a "fraud" or "hyped." But they miss the point, for there was indeed massive and undisputed evidence to indicate that the Iraqi regime was building WMD.
Yes! In 1990, perhaps.

Quote:
Defectors and other Iraqi sources nearly all agreed on his WMD program.


Simple, unadulterated, outright, lie.

Quote:
The actions of Saddam's government - fending off United Nations weapons inspectors tooth and nail, hiding evidence, forgoing opportunities to have the economic sanctions lifted - all confirmed its existence.
No, it only confirm's Hussein's paranoia.

Quote:
Nor is that all: Rich Lowry of National Review


Ahahahahahaha!! Oh, that's rich! "My bud, over at the National Review, says it's so!"

Quote:
has shown that the entire Clinton administration leadership - as well as the United Nations and the French and German governments - believed in the existence of Iraqi WMD.
Quote:

If no WMD exist, the real mystery is not how the Bush administration made the same mistake everyone else did [HOGAN EDIT - NOTICE HOW THE WORD 'LIE' DID NOT COME INTO THE DEBATE = HE SEEMS TO KNOW THE DEFINITION];
That's because the guy's so pro-Bush he's starting to LOOK like him, lol!

Quote:
the mystery is why Saddam created the false impression that he had them. Why did he put himself into the bizarre position of simultaneously pretending to build WMD and pretending to hide his nonexistent weapons?
All explained in the Ritter interview, above. Nice attempt at spin, tho.

Quote:
Two historical examples make this point. Hitler was winning World War II until he insisted, against the muted advice of his generals, to begin a two-front war by attacking the Soviet Union. Stalin responded to the buildup of Nazi forces along his border by pretending the whole thing was not taking place.

Hitler's mistake is seen as one of the turning points of World War II and a key reason for Germany's defeat. Stalin's error caused the deaths of many millions of his subjects. The Nazi-Soviet war was the largest, most brutal, and most deadly in human history, and it resulted primarily from the hubris and ignorance of two dictators.
[HOGAN EDIT - BE CAREFUL NEIL, CAN YOU READ THESE TWO PARA.'S WITHOUT CLAIMING WWII ARGUMENTS MEAN NOTHING? YOU CAN LEARN FROM HISTORY].
You so do not get it...redux. Lemme try again...

Godwin's Law

Quote:
Godwin's Law (also Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is an adage in Internet culture originated by Mike Godwin on Usenet in 1990 that states:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.
There is a tradition of protocol in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread in which the comment was posted is over and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.

It is considered poor form to arbitrarily raise such a comparison with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized codicil that any such deliberate invocation of Godwin's Law will be unsuccessful.

Debate and controversy
One common objection to the invocation of Godwin's Law is that sometimes using Hitler or the Nazis is an apt way of making a point. For instance, if one is debating the relative merits of a particular leader, and someone says something like, "He's a good leader, look at the way he's improved the economy," one could reply, "Just because he improved the economy doesn't make him a good leader. Even Hitler improved the economy." Some would view this as a perfectly acceptable comparison. One uses Hitler as a well-known example of an extreme case that requires no explanation to prove that a generalization is not universally true.

Some would argue, however, that Godwin's Law applies especially to the situation mentioned above, as it portrays an inevitable appeal to emotion as well as holding an implied ad hominem attack on the subject being compared, both of which are fallacious in irrelevant contexts. Hitler, on a semiotic level, has far too many negative connotations associated with him to be used as a valid comparison to anything but other despotic dictators. Thus, Godwin's Law holds even in making comparisons to normal leaders that, on the surface, would seem to be reasonable comparisons.

Godwin's standard answer to this objection is to note that Godwin's Law does not dispute whether, in a particular instance, a reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be apt. It is precisely because such a reference or comparison may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued, that hyperbolic overuse of the Hitler/Nazi comparison should be avoided. Avoiding such hyperbole, he argues, is a way of ensuring that when valid comparisons to Hitler or Nazis are made, such comparisons have the appropriate impact.

Quote:
Saddam Hussein already has a comparable record of mistakes (recall his disastrous invasions of Iran and Kuwait), so clinging to a nonexistent WMD program even as it led to his own perdition should come as no surprise. We on the outside can only imagine the ambitions and distortions that prompted his faulty decisions.
See? Even Daniel Pipes agrees with me!

Quote:
The propensity of totalitarian demigods to self-inflicted wounds has direct implications for dealing with North Korea, Libya, and other rogue states.
Unless, of course: they possess wmd's. Then it's "hands off!"

The final verdict?

Vague assertions, broad-based attacks and anti-Syria slurs, doth not a wmd-programme, make.

In short....NEXT!!!!

Last edited by Neil Mick : 02-06-2006 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 02-07-2006, 08:39 AM   #14
Hogan
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
blah, blah, blah...
Exactly.
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Old 02-07-2006, 11:22 AM   #15
James Davis
 
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
So, all this talk about radioactive materials found ignores the obvious: that there simply wasn't the enrichment materials and technology available to produce a nuc. It wouldn't be available, for years. Cute bit of propaganda, there.



You. just. don't. get. it. It was NEVER about wmd. The US forces knowingly targeted civilian infrastructure in '91, to bring Hussein to his knees, just as the CIA suggested. When he didn't: the Sanctions dragged on throughout the '90's, murdering over a million children. The whole mess was another way to squeeze Saddam.
It's not always about making nukes. Sometimes, someone just wants to get their hands on radioactive material to use an explosive to scatter it in the subway or a busy mall. One doesn't necessarily need a nuke to terrorize anyone.

Yes, the sanctions were a way to squeeze Saddam (to avoid all-out war). The Oil For Food program was a way to feed the kids. Our "pals" in the UN got paid; the kids died.

Good, honorable plan to help innocent children + corrupt UN bigwigs = failure.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 02-07-2006, 11:30 AM   #16
Neil Mick
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Exactly.
Translation: "Yes, I rely on vitriolic right-wing sources that are long on speculation, and short on substance. Thank you, Neil, for showing me how misguided, and uninformed, I was...now I truly see the truth."

No thanks necessary, John! All in a day's posting!
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Old 02-07-2006, 11:40 AM   #17
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote:
It's not always about making nukes. Sometimes, someone just wants to get their hands on radioactive material to use an explosive to scatter it in the subway or a busy mall. One doesn't necessarily need a nuke to terrorize anyone.
No, they don't. But since we're talking about the possibilities of Iraq being a threat: then simply having "radioactive material" around is not enough of a reason to start proclaiming the existence of wmd's.

It is well-known that Iraq had a nuclear reactor: big deal. This proves nothing in the way of wmd's.

Consider:

IRAQ: Radioactive material and pollutants widespread

Quote:
BAGHDAD, 21 Sep 2004 (IRIN) - While the Coalition has not found any weapons of mass destruction, Iraq has lots of radioactive pollution, especially at a known nuclear research site, a new survey conducted by the Ministry of Environment shows.

Tuwaitha, some 18 km south of the capital, Baghdad, is a site of previous nuclear weapons research and experiments. It appears to have the highest ambient radiation in the country, Bushra Ali Ahmed, author of the radiation survey, told IRIN.

Residents of the area looted containers holding radioactive materials in the days immediately following the US-led invasion of Iraq in April 2003. They dumped the radioactive contents on the ground at the site and used the containers to carry water, milk and other household materials and foodstuffs.
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Old 02-07-2006, 12:56 PM   #18
Hogan
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Translation: "Yes, I rely on vitriolic right-wing sources that are long on speculation, and short on substance. Thank you, Neil, for showing me how misguided, and uninformed, I was...now I truly see the truth."

No thanks necessary, John! All in a day's posting!

ahahahaahah.... when I am in CA soon, I'll have to make to come practice at your dojo and we should all go out for drinks....
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Old 02-08-2006, 12:32 AM   #19
Neil Mick
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
ahahahaahah.... when I am in CA soon, I'll have to make to come practice at your dojo and we should all go out for drinks....
Excellent. The first Guiness is on me. Now, how cool is that?
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Old 02-08-2006, 06:15 AM   #20
Mark Freeman
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Re: The Undead Ghosts of wmds, back from the dead!

Glad to see that the right wing and the left wing can meet together in mutal harmony over a drink of the sacred Irish elixir!!

Cheers,
Mark.
p.s. Sorry John, if I was the referee of the above exchange I would have to declare Neil the winner on points. however I hope you both enjoy the practice and the drink.

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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