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Old 01-30-2006, 09:56 AM   #51
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
The only thing that'll stop a terrorist is a bullet. Accept it - they want to die, so let us accommodate them.
John your simplicity is as quaint as the naivete you accuse others of.
It's not the 'only' way, although I agree it is a way. Not all 'terrorists' want to die, and one man's terrorist is another man's 'freedom fighter'. Nelson mandela was a 'terrorist' in the eyes of his country's government. Should he have been shot. Not in my opinion!

Simplistic solutions to complex problems create more difficulties as they usually fail to address the underlying issues that create the 'terrorist' in the first place. The 'war on terror' is as probably as un-win-able as the war on drugs. How can you wage war on a nominalisation like 'terror' or for that matter on an inanimate object like a drug. Just for the record, since the war on terror in Afghanistan, the opium / heroin trade has increased massively since. So the war on one has exacerbated the war on the other.

I think we need to look at trying to find more intelligent ways of dealing with issues other than just declaring war on them. Some of them may mean we have to take a long hard look at ourselves and what we do especially when it may have a direct affect on people outside our own borders ( govnt foreign policy, use of resources etc )

I read in the press today that 53% of Americans are in favour of military intervention in Iran should that country continue on it's present nuclear path, can this be so?

Anyway, just my 2c

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-30-2006, 11:41 AM   #52
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

In aikido we are taught to 'step back and get the big picture'. That alone can make the difference for each one of us. In gassho
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Old 01-30-2006, 11:59 AM   #53
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Wha? Ummm.... Hitler invading Poland was an 'activity', too. So was Pearl Harbor - shall we have not participated in WWII ?
1. Hitler was a leader, representing a country.
2. When the US declared war in WW2: they declared war on GERMANY, the country, not "war on all invaders."
3. Ergo, your example, is misplaced, as usual.
4. Besides, you lose...Godwin's Law!

Quote:
The only thing that'll stop a terrorist is a bullet.
Simple, pat, bumper-sticker outlooks won't solve the world's problems. But, since you like to present things in simplicities...here ya go:

*The only thing that will stop the US terrorist war-machine is peace.
*The major thing motivating the other terrorists is the US war-machine.
*Stop the US "full-spectrum dominance," and you stop a major cause for their violence.

Quote:
Accept it - they want to die, so let us accommodate them.
Accept it - no one really wants to die, unless we give them a reason.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 01-30-2006 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 01-30-2006, 05:55 PM   #54
Hogan
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
John your simplicity is as quaint as the naivete you accuse others of....
Nah, I just understand the issue so thoroughly that it really is that simple. At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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Old 01-30-2006, 06:03 PM   #55
Hogan
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
1. Hitler was a leader, representing a country.
2. When the US declared war in WW2: they declared war on GERMANY, the country, not "war on all invaders."
3. Ergo, your example, is misplaced, as usual.
4. Besides, you lose...Godwin's Law!
So, let me understand you:
1 - Since Bin Laden (or "Uncle Binny") was not a head of a country (debatable since he controlled Afganistan), we can't attack him and wage war against his ilk or the states that sponsor terrorists ?
2 - The US declared war on Germany BEFORE Germany declared war on the US, don't forget. FDR was 'preemptive".
3 - Ergo, read history & get your facts straight, then your criticism may hold water.
4 - *sigh*... Law created by people that got tired of being made fools of I suppose, by examples of history.



Quote:
*The only thing that will stop the US terrorist war-machine is peace.
No, the only thing that'll stop the US war machine is the death of our enemies.

Quote:
*The major thing motivating the other terrorists is the US war-machine.
AHAHAH !!! I almost lost my mint on that one...

Quote:
*Stop the US "full-spectrum dominance," and you stop a major cause for their violence.
You get this 'full-spectrum dominance' from an xbox game or something?

Quote:
Accept it - no one really wants to die, unless we give them a reason.
Oh YES. Sorry, the US is the root of all evil - forgot that one.
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Old 01-30-2006, 06:26 PM   #56
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Nah, I just understand the issue so thoroughly that it really is that simple. At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I'm going to assume that you are joking. As reading your reply to Neil Mick above has some statements that just don't hold up.

How can you possibly think that Bin Laden controlled Afghanistan?? Where did this piece of creative storytelling come from?. The Taliban may have allowed him to operate from within their country but that is about as far as it goes!! And then go on to say to someone "read your history and get your facts straight" Pots and Kettles come to mind.

Quote:
No, the only thing that'll stop the US war machine is the death of our enemies.
Please stop for one minute and consider for a moment, that it is this sort of thinking that got us to where we are at the moment. As long as men like you think like you do, then there will be no end to conflict. Maybe you are happy with that, I certainly am not.
We could do so much better, but seeing the level of the debate here, I fear for the future. and that my input will be futile

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-30-2006, 10:53 PM   #57
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posts: 225
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

Ah yes, the tried-and-true method of "fit-my-notion-of-what-he's-saying," is still alive and well here, on aikiweb. So, let's look in on the latest...

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
So, let me understand you:
ha.

Quote:
1 - Since Bin Laden (or "Uncle Binny") was not a head of a country (debatable since he controlled Afganistan), we can't attack him and wage war against his ilk or the states that sponsor terrorists ?
Yep. But yet again you try to fit more into what I'm saying, than what was my intent. I'm saying that you can't simply claim a "war on terror." Terrorism, as you well know, is an abstraction. An activity. Can you tell me "terror's" address? His cell-phone #?

Plus, the US cannot wage war on a person. Or even a group. Countries wage war on countries. Countries CAN neutralize, blacklist, annoy, pester, harass, murder, and isolate individuals. But of course, we're in danger of getting semantical.

Quote:
2 - The US declared war on Germany BEFORE Germany declared war on the US, don't forget. FDR was 'preemptive".
What is it with you and WW2??

What part of "Godwin's Rule" did you miss? There's a GOOD REASON for it. Every time WW2 is brought into the picture: facts and concepts get distorted.

And, going by your reasoning: Japan had EVERY RIGHT to attack Pearl Harbor. The American press was filled with jingoist calls to invade Japan. In fact, they declared a pre-emptive attack to stop America from attacking Japan.

So please, take your distorted revisions of WW2 and peddle them somewhere else. If you want to use an historical precedent, fine: but please make the analogy relevant. Bin Ladin wasn''t Hitler; Bush isn't Churchill; and we didn't invade Iraq, to "rescue" the Iraqi people from the eeevel dictator.

Quote:
3 - Ergo, read history & get your facts straight, then your criticism may hold water.
Boy, now THAT's rich.

Quote:
4 - *sigh*... Law created by people that got tired of being made fools of I suppose, by examples of history.
Relevance? Nah, don't bother...probably a random sentence, inspired by almost choking on a pretzel...

Quote:
No, the only thing that'll stop the US war machine is the death of our enemies.

AHAHAH !!! I almost lost my mint on that one...
or even a mint!

But, it sure is funny, isn't it? The US never, ever seems to run out of enemies. And if you truly believe that someday, this war-machine will end when the President says "enough," then I fear for the ingredients of those mints!

Quote:
You get this 'full-spectrum dominance' from an xbox game or something?
Yeah... you might have heard of him...Rummy? he's a real cartoon character...thinks he's a poet...

Quote:
Oh YES. Sorry, the US is the root of all evil - forgot that one.
Oh yes. Sorry, the US can murder, jail, and torture whomever it likes...forgot that one.

Cost of expressing your dissent to the war-machine in nonviolent civil disobedience? 4 months jail, and/or being spied upon by your local police, or the FBI.

Cost of torturing and killing an Iraqi detainee? A stern letter, a cut in your allowance, and grounded for 2 months

Cost of running an empire into the ground so that the have-more's get paid, a little faster? See my sig, below.

Cost of the picture of Johnny-boy's face, on that grey, grey morning when his best friend, The Man, kicks in HIS door, looking for terrorists? Priceless.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 01-30-2006 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 01-31-2006, 09:34 AM   #58
Hogan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 106
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
What is it with you and WW2?? What part of "Godwin's Rule" did you miss? There's a GOOD REASON for it. Every time WW2 is brought into the picture: facts and concepts get distorted.
Uh, dude, YOU were the one that brought up WWII. So, let's be clear, you bring it up, then criticise me for bringing it up in my response. Cute.

Quote:
And, going by your reasoning: Japan had EVERY RIGHT to attack Pearl Harbor. The American press was filled with jingoist calls to invade Japan. In fact, they declared a pre-emptive attack to stop America from attacking Japan.
Okay, Tokyo Mick.

Quote:
..and we didn't invade Iraq, to "rescue" the Iraqi people from the eeevel dictator.
Okay, Saddam lover. (Man, you are getting to be quite the friend of the dictators of the world - you wanna' kiss Castro, too?).


Quote:
Yeah... you might have heard of him...Rummy? he's a real cartoon character...thinks he's a poet...
Ahhhhh, Rummy - I like Rummy.
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Old 01-31-2006, 12:43 PM   #59
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Uh, dude, YOU were the one that brought up WWII. So, let's be clear, you bring it up, then criticise me for bringing it up in my response. Cute.
How sad: now poor John, left without a single piece of propaganda to buttress his yes-man theories for a tyrant, now has to resort to outright untruths.

Oh, Johnny-boy, Johnny-boy....tsk, tsk. Anyone who bothers to look can see that YOU were the first to mention WW2 in this thread...it starts at post #49:

Quote:
John "misdirection" Hogan wrote:
Wha? Ummm.... Hitler invading Poland was an 'activity', too. So was Pearl Harbor - shall we have not participated in WWII ? The only thing that'll stop a terrorist is a bullet. Accept it - they want to die, so let us accommodate them.
It's so sad when a post'er starts making up stuff, that is so easy to disprove. Ah well...

Quote:
Okay, Tokyo Mick.

Okay, Saddam lover. (Man, you are getting to be quite the friend of the dictators of the world - you wanna' kiss Castro, too?).
Yep, you really are down to your last gasp, debate-wise: when you start in with the "terrorist-lover" stuff, it usually means that you cannot find any other source to ditto-head.

Someday, tho...someday: I look forward to a real debate, where you don't try to slime the conversation with patently untrue facts (my favorite was your claim that the US "fought" the Contra's); hide behind US strawman propaganda (i.e., "US foreign Occupation, involving torture and mass imprisonment = Freedom," etc, ad nauseum); or try to attack the character of the person with whom you disagree.

I fear I'll be waiting a long, long time, for that day.

Until that time I fear our discussion will be frightfully one-sided, with you taking your usual trollish route, through the thicket of political debate.

Quote:
Ahhhhh, Rummy - I like Rummy.
Big surprise. At times I liked Arnold Schwartzenegger as an action-figure: until he decided to ruin my state.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 01-31-2006 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 01-31-2006, 01:11 PM   #60
Hogan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 106
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
How sad: now poor John, left without a single piece of propaganda to buttress his yes-man theories for a tyrant, now has to resort to outright untruths.

Oh, Johnny-boy, Johnny-boy....tsk, tsk. Anyone who bothers to look can see that YOU were the first to mention WW2 in this thread...it starts at post #49:
Man, did I relly bring it up 1st and say you did ? Well, then sorry. I must be thinking of all the other times you brought it up.... BUT, anology is still valid.

Quote:
Yep, you really are down to your last gasp, debate-wise: when you start in with the "terrorist-lover" stuff, it usually means that you cannot find any other source to ditto-head.
Well, I have seen no other proof to prove me wrong. Sorry, I call 'em like I see 'em.

Quote:
Someday, tho...someday: I look forward to a real debate, where you don't try to slime the conversation with patently untrue facts (my favorite was your claim that the US "fought" the Contra's); hide behind US strawman propaganda (i.e., "US foreign Occupation, involving torture and mass imprisonment = Freedom," etc, ad nauseum); or try to attack the character of the person with whom you disagree.
What I say is truth. When you accept it, you will lead a better life.

Quote:
... with you taking your usual trollish route, through the thicket of political debate.
What has amazed me and my psychologist friends is how someone can be so oblivious such as yourself.


Quote:
...Big surprise. At times I liked Arnold Schwartzenegger as an action-figure: until he decided to ruin my state.
Yes, I see how your state was perfect before he came into office.
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Old 01-31-2006, 01:20 PM   #61
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Man, did I relly bring it up 1st and say you did ? Well, then sorry. I must be thinking of all the other times you brought it up
No: I don't like using WW2 as a comparison, for the reasons I've already given. You must be thinking of someone else.

Quote:
.... BUT, anology is still valid.
Wrong again, for the reasons I've already given. The comparison does not apply, and even if it did, then Japan must have been acting properly, in bombing Pearl Harbor.

Quote:
Well, I have seen no other proof to prove me wrong. Sorry, I call 'em like I see 'em.
Yeah, a President admitting to breaking the law, authorizing torture and attempting to jail people forever sure is a tough thing to argue against...nope, no proof here.

Quote:
What I say is truth. When you accept it, you will lead a better life.
John, if these things you write here are any indication of your perspective: then I fear that you and the truth have been separated for a long, long time...

Quote:
What has amazed me and my psychologist friends is how someone can be so oblivious such as yourself.
Its a bad idea to talk about other people in the midst of your own psych-session.

Quote:
Yes, I see how your state was perfect before he came into office.
OK, ya got me, there.
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Old 01-31-2006, 07:55 PM   #62
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Your naiveté is quaint.
Since you didn't cite any specific disagreements, I'll just have to assume that this was a tantrum.

-LK
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Old 02-01-2006, 08:49 AM   #63
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
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Canada
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

This thread is getting stupid every day.

Bush wants to make trouble with Iran has nothing to do with nuke except the fact that Iran doesn't have nuke to defend itself. The real matter is about Iraq

Bush now has a nasty situation in Iraq. The US public wants its army coming home while the US army is gettting killed left and right. Bush knows the Iraq situation will be out of control without US army presence. Bush will lose Iraq if he withdraw US military. He'll lose public poll if he doesn't. Here is Iran coming in handy. To have "war" with Iran will give him a legit excuse to keep US army in Iraq, maybe send more. Any one with a IQ over 100 will see through Bush's "tactic".

The "nuke" thing makes me laugh. You'd think Bush would come up with a better excuse this term to have beef with Iran. Not, the same old "nuke" lie as with Iraq. Hey, it worked once, why not this time? Iraq turned out didn't have nuke, so what? Bush is still president, and the US public is still behind him in this Iran nuke again.

This time, I think Bush will be smarter. He'll just lip service about war with Iran. He doesn't want another Iraq in his hand this time. So long Iran will along with Bush to keep the army in Iraq, every thing will be fine except the poor parents who will mourn over their lost sons and daughters in US army.

Bush is public enemy no. 1 of US people.
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Old 02-01-2006, 09:54 AM   #64
Hogan
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote:
Since you didn't cite any specific disagreements, I'll just have to assume that this was a tantrum.

-LK
Nah, sort of a mixture of fact & opinion. Naiveté = fact; quaint = opinion.
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Old 02-01-2006, 10:28 PM   #65
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

<shrug>.
again, you have resorted to the intellectual equivilant of calling me a booger head. Since you can't do any better than that, my assertions stand.

-LK
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Old 02-02-2006, 05:03 PM   #66
Hogan
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote:
<shrug>.
again, you have resorted to the intellectual equivilant of calling me a booger head. Since you can't do any better than that, my assertions stand.

-LK
I wuold suggest you read a dictionary - calling some naive is not equivalent to calling someone a 'booger head', as you put it. Now, if I called you an 'idiot', that would be something different...
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Old 02-02-2006, 06:49 PM   #67
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
Location: California
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

Either one is an ad-hominem attack that does nothing to correct, challenge, or deconstruct any of my statements. It's a primary logical error: in an ad hominem attack, you are saying 'this person is a ______, therefore we don't have to listen to her,' regardless of the quality of her statements. It's a way of avoiding the actual debate.

-LK
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Old 02-02-2006, 07:11 PM   #68
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

and I'm sooo sure you already know that, so why the quibbling defense?

-LK
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Old 02-03-2006, 05:05 PM   #69
Hogan
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Posts: 106
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote:
Either one is an ad-hominem attack that does nothing to correct, challenge, or deconstruct any of my statements. It's a primary logical error: in an ad hominem attack, you are saying 'this person is a ______, therefore we don't have to listen to her,' regardless of the quality of her statements. It's a way of avoiding the actual debate.

-LK
NOOOOO; I am calling a belief niave, not YOU - there is a difference. I am not saying, 'this person is a ____'. Nor did I say we don't have to listen to her.
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Old 02-04-2006, 12:52 PM   #70
Neil Mick
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Re: Iran and Nuclear Weapons

OK....both of you: step awaay from the monitor.

Go train, instead! Gambatte!
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