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Old 01-13-2006, 11:25 AM   #26
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
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Re: the pins

Mike, I just can feel the tention up to the scapula in the sankyo. Where should the tention continue, along the spin or along the latissuimus dorsim? Is there any way that can help me feel the tention down?

Thanks.
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Old 01-13-2006, 11:37 AM   #27
Mike Sigman
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Re: the pins

Roosvelt, try sort of slumping or something like that. There should be a meeting of the tension from the sankyo and from the hand doing the twisting in the lower lumbar vertebrae. Once you get that meeting of forces, focus on it and hold it for a little while. You want to develop that connection from the middle (both the back and the front of the torso, depending on the direction of twist), since that's what you need to "control the hands with the middle". A lot of people think "moving from the middle" is sort of a rhetorical thing... it means literally controlling the body and limbs with either outgoing or incoming kokyu forces.



Mike
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Old 01-19-2006, 08:58 AM   #28
roosvelt
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Re: the pins

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Roosvelt, try sort of slumping or something like that. There should be a meeting of the tension from the sankyo and from the hand doing the twisting in the lower lumbar vertebrae. Once you get that meeting of forces, focus on it and hold it for a little while. You want to develop that connection from the middle (both the back and the front of the torso, depending on the direction of twist), since that's what you need to "control the hands with the middle". A lot of people think "moving from the middle" is sort of a rhetorical thing... it means literally controlling the body and limbs with either outgoing or incoming kokyu forces.



Mike

Thanks, Mike.

It's hard to get there I guess. Now I try to slump and lower my shoulder more. I feel the scapula crush together and the tension/pain is a little unbearable. If I twist a little more, a little tention travel down, not much. I'm kind of freaked out by the pain. I want to ask you before I contrinue. Am i on the right path? Or should I try different configuration. I seems very hard to connect my shoulder to my middle. Is there any good excersice to get the right feeling of connection.

Thanks again.
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Old 01-19-2006, 10:05 AM   #29
MaryKaye
Dojo: Seattle Ki Society
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Re: the pins

I had a seventh dan do sankyo on me and stop in the standing-hold position. "Does it hurt?" "No, sensei." "Can you move?" I had the strong impression that I daren't move even my eyeballs or I would be in terrible pain. A very weird experience. It was like having large parts of my body strung on a wire which was at full tension, so that if he just plucked it everything would ring.

His advice for doing sankyo better was to have the shoulders very relaxed, and focus on the lower hand controlling the fingertips rather than the upper hand controlling the wrist.

I love sankyo very much because I can always find it, even from weird attacks. But I certainly can't approach that level of artistry in applying it.

Mary Kaye
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Old 01-19-2006, 10:41 AM   #30
roosvelt
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Re: the pins

Quote:
Mary Kuhner wrote:
I had a seventh dan do sankyo on me and stop in the standing-hold position. "Does it hurt?" "No, sensei." "Can you move?" I had the strong impression that I daren't move even my eyeballs or I would be in terrible pain. A very weird experience. It was like having large parts of my body strung on a wire which was at full tension, so that if he just plucked it everything would ring.


Too bad, you didn't try to move. Otherwise, you could experiment with different body configuration to find the correct path so you could apply it yourslef.

Quote:
Mary Kuhner wrote:
His advice for doing sankyo better was to have the shoulders very relaxed, and focus on the lower hand controlling the fingertips rather than the upper hand controlling the wrist.
I can understand the shoulder relaxed part. I don't know what he meant by controlling the fingertips.
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Old 01-19-2006, 01:17 PM   #31
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: the pins

Sankyo as a two handed sword grip on one of uke's hands.

shite takes uke's right hand with left hand

shite's fingers control the blade of uke's hand, thumb and forefinger loosely encircle uke's wrist

off balance uke to their right, add atemi as desired while entering under the wrist (so as not to get choked when entering under close to uke's body/power.

Shite can xstep in body change, front pivot to apply

shuffle in, front pivot, front pivot to apply

shuffle in, front pivot, cross-step back, body change to apply

all kinds of things.

shite's free hand controls uke's fingers. The lock should be felt through all the joints from fingers through to uke's center.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 01-19-2006 at 01:21 PM. Reason: don't like the term 'ducking'...switched it to entering.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-19-2006, 04:26 PM   #32
eyrie
 
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Re: the pins

It should be *controlling the center thru the fingertips*.

If you apply pressure to the pinky and bend it back a tad, you can apply some structural control thru pain compliance, but not necessarily control of center. The trick is to bring uke up on their toes. Actually, any number of fingers or thumb will work (those that do yubitori-waza will know what I'm talking about), but you must control uke's center, or end up with broken fingers if uke resists.

Ignatius
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Old 01-22-2006, 05:25 PM   #33
Mike Sigman
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Re: the pins

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Thanks, Mike.

It's hard to get there I guess. Now I try to slump and lower my shoulder more. I feel the scapula crush together and the tension/pain is a little unbearable. If I twist a little more, a little tention travel down, not much. I'm kind of freaked out by the pain. I want to ask you before I contrinue. Am i on the right path? Or should I try different configuration. I seems very hard to connect my shoulder to my middle. Is there any good excersice to get the right feeling of connection.
Wait... wait... I was talking about what to feel when you're doing the self-twist wrist exercise of sankyo. My bad. I was telling you how to start building it up, not how to resist it.

Mike
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Old 01-23-2006, 09:34 AM   #34
roosvelt
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Re: the pins

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Wait... wait... I was talking about what to feel when you're doing the self-twist wrist exercise of sankyo. My bad. I was telling you how to start building it up, not how to resist it.

Mike
Yes. I think that's what I've been trying to do: to have the correct "feel" when doing self-sankyo.

I can feel the "tension" up my forearm, tricept, scapula, along side of the spine, then I have trouble to get the tension down more. I wonder if you have ohter suggestions other than slump more.

Thanks.
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Old 01-23-2006, 10:16 AM   #35
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: the pins

My bad too...

RT

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 01-23-2006, 10:18 AM   #36
Mike Sigman
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Re: the pins

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Yes. I think that's what I've been trying to do: to have the correct "feel" when doing self-sankyo.

I can feel the "tension" up my forearm, tricept, scapula, along side of the spine, then I have trouble to get the tension down more. I wonder if you have ohter suggestions other than slump more.
OK, if you can get it that far (to the scapula area), pay attention that the stress is in the surface muscles and skin connection to the L3 lumbar area. Work backward and try to grab the connection out to the wrist from the lower lumbar area. Try to "hold" the twist, just lightly at first, with the lower lumbar area. That's how you start building up the "ki" connection... very lightly... at first. You have to develop it over time.

Mike
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Old 01-23-2006, 11:58 AM   #37
roosvelt
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Re: the pins

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
OK, if you can get it that far (to the scapula area), pay attention that the stress is in the surface muscles and skin connection to the L3 lumbar area. Work backward and try to grab the connection out to the wrist from the lower lumbar area.

Mike
Thanks, Mike,

Holding the position, if I lift both my hand over my head, (like Pressing the Heavens with Two Hands in Eight Section Brocade, with modification of one hand holding another in sankyo) can get the "tension" down to my L3 lumbar area easily. Then I lower my hand slowly back to front of my chest and hold the tension in my back.

Could you verify is the correct "path/connection"? Thanks.
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Old 01-23-2006, 02:55 PM   #38
roosvelt
Location: Ontario
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Re: the pins

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Thanks, Mike,

Holding the position, if I lift both my hand over my head, (like Pressing the Heavens with Two Hands in Eight Section Brocade, with modification of one hand holding another in sankyo) can get the "tension" down to my L3 lumbar area easily. Then I lower my hand slowly back to front of my chest and hold the tension in my back.

Could you verify is the correct "path/connection"? Thanks.

Mike, assuming I got the connection in Sankyo, what do I do with it? Is there any application that I can test if my connection is correct? In lifing the heaven (both hands pusing upward) and push the mountain (both pushing forward), tenchi-nage (one hand up and one hand down), should I maintain the tension?

Thanks.
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Old 01-23-2006, 08:57 PM   #39
Mike Sigman
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Re: the pins

Hi Roosvelt:

I can't judge from written words if you are feeling exactly as I described. The point is to make a connection from you "center" to your hands. Just a light one at first and then keep working it until it gets stronger. You cannot get ki to the hands without working on it for a while. Notice that some twists will connect with the "center" through the back point (the mingmen around L3) and some twists will connect through the middle in the front. Correct movement in the "natural" microcosmic orbit is said to go from the middle at the back, out to the fingertips along the yang meridians and back to the middle in the front through the yin meridians. If you analyse the flow of movements, it is easy to see that this is indeed true for movements (i.e., the yang movements). It's not just some made-up ritual but is a way of analysing and describing what actually happens to the flow of strength through the body.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 01-25-2006, 03:11 AM   #40
Johan Nielsen
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Re: the pins

From my experience some beginners and some guys seem to believe that it is macho to endure pain. And sometimes beginners are reluctant to give them selves away as aikido noobs, thus they want to endure the pain. And some older students think that beginners learn better and faster the more pain they inflict during a pin. Of course, you get a good strech and endure more pain in the future. However, everybody is not as flexible, and people should feel that they can tap early or say that the other student is hurting them. It's not necessary to hurt each other in order to learn the pins. The pain tells us when we have reached the limits for a twist of an arm, for example. Tap already when you feel that a pin is going to hurt, not when it is hurting a lot.
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Old 01-25-2006, 03:33 AM   #41
Alec Corper
 
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Re: the pins

Several points have already been made that are vital. If your body is not integrated then, your legs are held down even when your centre is attacked. Or as I would say to students, "stop standing there like a sack of concrete". Since all pins have as a purpose moving the whole body by closing the links of the chain until the centre is reached, if you feel too much pain on the joint only, it is either because tori does not understand the purpose of the joint lock and is misdirecting your body, or because the speed of technique is greater than ukes ability to respond, due to either physical or mental inflexibility. Some pain is inevitable but continuous pain or injury is a sign of wrong practise.
I once heard Suganuma Sensei ask 2 yudansha busily showing how they could withstand nikkyo, "do you want to get smarter or tougher?" Standing still in front of someone when a pin is applied means someone is doing something odd, pain must follow. BTW if you can stand still when a pin is applied then tori is in perfect position to receive atemi which i suppose could be an argument for getting tougher, but I still think that receiving the pin is the best approach to the next step which is kaeshi waza.
regards, Alec

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