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Old 01-20-2006, 05:41 PM   #51
Pdella
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Evil Eyes Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
Sean Orchard wrote:
You don't seem to understand what a "double blind" trial is.... etc.

Nope. Whether a technically "double-blind" study or not, my point is valid b/c it is the equivalent; the patients receive exactly the same level of medical care (whether that's nothing or something is irrelevant for these purposes, my understanding is that both have been done in various studies). The so-called Placebo Effect is exactly what I'm talking about. It sounds like you have researched the issue and are aware that scientists have struggled to explain the Placebo Effect. How do YOU explain it?

Another issue that others have brought up:

It is silly to assume that just b/c you can think of some physical or scientifically established way to explain the phenomenon means that it is bullshit, fake, pseudo-science, or religious. It takes a small amount of competence to realize two things quite quickly: (1) No one knows every aspect of scientific research that exists at the present time in all fields, biology, physics, etc. and (2) the study of the world is continually changing, in 20 yrs scientists will undoubtedly have decided that our views in 2006 were limited by our ignorance of certain scientific phenomena. Thus, there could easily be a physical/scientific explanation of almost any phenomena regardless of whether one person is aware of such explanation. No?
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Old 01-21-2006, 09:02 AM   #52
Erik
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with a person from any background having an experience and simply accepting it. The person who described it made no attempt to couch the description in religious or supernatural terms. Just described to the best of his abilities what he experienced. Come to think of it, that's how a lot of science starts :-)
Nor do I, it's when they start reaching conclusions that the problems begin.
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Old 01-21-2006, 06:17 PM   #53
Janet Rosen
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
Erik Haselhofer wrote:
Nor do I, it's when they start reaching conclusions that the problems begin.
no arguement there.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-23-2006, 02:17 AM   #54
Edwin Neal
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Smile Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

I think i avoided this thread for this long because I "felt" exactly what it was about... magic or just my preternaturally sharp mind, you decide... I tend towards the bullshido veiw... I have met some (especially american) sensei's who get all into the "mystical-magical" nature of aikido... this is just BS... some form of ego ie i know a secret and thus am superior to mere mortals, become my disciple and you can be special too... aikido is nothing magical... training in sensitivity to your surroundings is essential... many times i have seen the fight coming and either avoided or finished it... not supernatural just alertness and training... try playing ball with Michael Jordan and you'll think he is more than human, but he is just way more skilled than the rest of us... to the original poster you did the right thing by being HONEST... how many of you have ever seen a George Dillman seminar they do this kind of self deceit all the time, but ALWAYS have an excuse as to why it didn't work in your particular case... use your brains people... there ARE more than one born every minute...

Last edited by Edwin Neal : 01-23-2006 at 02:19 AM.

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Old 01-23-2006, 11:21 AM   #55
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

I've never quite understood why some epeople are so invested in "not being fooled". I have seen people ignore some of the most beneficial things because they didn't understand it and so rejected it out of hand...

It's like Homeopathy... no one has the least idea why it works. The manner in which they produce the remedies is counter intuitive. Yet the system has been around for over two hundred years and millions of people's direct experience, my one and my family's included, attest to the fact that it works.

Chinese medicine is another example... it is a system of medicine based on a set of theories that can't be verified Western scientific methods. The meridians, the energetic points used in acupuncture, acupressure, moxabustion, etc. cannot be located in any physical manner through surgery. You can't find a physical structure called a meridian but they aer use all the time.

Training the "intuitive: or "psychic" aspects of the martial arts is as old as the arts themselves. Consciousness is just another sort of energy and the fact that we haven't yet figured out how to measure it with a machine doesn't mean that it isn't functioning in various ways that we have yet to understand.

People who reject this type of thing out of hand have only a shallow experience of martial arts training. Most classical styles, which prepared warriors for the "life and death encounter" had very sophisticated methods for training the psychic, or intuitive, aspects of the art. One of my teachers told us about traveling on the Tokyo subway and practicing how to project his attention... He would focus on someone and "will" them to look at him. The more difficult one was to focus on someone and "will" them to not look at him. He would then proceed to make himself more and more noticeable while willing them to not look up.

The first sword class I ever took from this teacher involved standing in front of him as he stood in Jodan no Kamae and would try to sense the instant he made the decision to attack. If I "got it" I cut him just as he started to move.

Another exercise that exists is to use mirroring... one stands across from his opponent and mirrirs him in every aspect. You duplicate his breathing, you match his movements, etc. At the point in which you have totally matched the opponent you can suddenly make a movement and he will be caught by it and will move as well.

I told one of my students about this and he said he knew the technique... He is a very successful trial lawyer and this is a technique he uses to lead witnesses in the direction he wants them to go. This is not some New Age guy but a very practical fellow.

The Russians have never taken the position taken by the rest of Western science and have been quite open to all sorts of energy and psychic research... There are all sorts of psychic elements in the Systema and the are quite systematic about how they teach these elements. Vladimir and Michael are simply amazing in this regard.

I co-taught a seminar in Berkeley at Kayla Feder sensei's dojo in which another teacher did all sorts of "energy" exercises. At one point I was blind folded and he stood in front of me. I held both my hands out in front and he told me to withdraw whichever hand I felt him reach for. I was relaxed and open, not trying too hard, as instructed. At one instant I felt a distinct twinge in my left hand and was about to pull it back when I got a string feeling I should pull back my right hand which I did. When I opened my eyes, he had indeed, been reaching for my right hand. When I told him about "feeling" something in my left hand he smiled and showed me how he had initially reached towards my left hand but had switched in mid-movement to my right hand. There is no doubt in my mind that I felt his intention in doing this. There were people watching and he wasn't able to "fake" his explanation. Everyone in the room experienced various aspects of the same thing as we did these exercises with each other.

This level of psychic intuition was considered crucial in the days in which everyone knew technique. Your enemy was another professional who had also trained since child hood in the same basic techniques you had. Surprise was an element that could allow one person of equal or even lesser skill to kill another. So it was an indispensable element in all training to be able to sense another's intention so that no one could ever get the drop on you.

Mochizuki sensei told one of the many stories about O-sensei related to this area... the deshi had been encouraged to try to attack O-Sensei any time they thought he was "open". No one could even get his door open more than a crack at night without his opening his eyes, no matter how deeply asleep he seemed to be... Well, Mochizuki sensei and one other deshi had accompanied O-sensei to some big party... they were off on the side doing their deshi thing, waiting to be needed... observing O-sensei deep in conversation with a friend, Mochizuki Sensei looked at his fellow deshi and said "I bet we could get him now!" At that instant, O-Sensei turned and looked directly across the room at Mochizuki Sensei and then returned to talking. The number of these stories by the deshi are too numerous to discount.

Sokaku Takeda was also able to function at this level. One of his students recounted taking an acquaintance to meet Takeda Sensei. They had just stepped into the room when Takeda Sensei angrily yelled at the "guest" and told him to get out. Back on the street the deshi started to apologize for his teacher's unexplained behavior when the friend said "No, please take me back inside so I can apologize..." It turned out that the friend had heard about Takeda Sensei's great skill and intended to test him by striking him when they bowed. When they re-entered the room, Takeda Sensei looked at the friend and then said, "Ok, you may come in now". Sensing ones "intentions" was considered essential for survival by these people and the trained to do it.

It is so interesting to me to see how invested many people are in not seeming gullible or foolish. It causes them to reject anything they don't understand. History is replete with examples of strong resistance to all sorts of ideas, especially by the established experts of that time, which are now simply considered fact. I have no doubt that at some point in the future this will happen in the area of psychic energy. In the mean time, those who reject these ideas out of hand and are so invested in not "being fooled" simply hurt themselves and intentionally keep their own training on a lesser level than they might otherwise attain.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 01-23-2006 at 11:25 AM.

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Old 01-23-2006, 02:03 PM   #56
Erik
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
You can't find a physical structure called a meridian but they aer use all the time.
If we can't find a meridian then how do we know that we use them?
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Old 01-23-2006, 02:08 PM   #57
Esaemann
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Amen.
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Old 01-23-2006, 02:18 PM   #58
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

My Sensei uses a lot of energy work in the dojo. So does his. I'd LOVE to see/hear any of you debate this with Bob Nadeau.
Thank you Ledyard Sensei. I hope to train with you in the spring...

Q
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"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
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Old 01-23-2006, 02:31 PM   #59
Erik
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
Eric Saemann wrote:
Amen.
Thanks!

I thought my question was a good one too.
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Old 01-23-2006, 03:17 PM   #60
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

We need at least one more eric (or erik) before we can rationally coin the phrase "a doubting eric"

It's called empirical evidence, I'm not saying much here, because I've never needed / had the facile opportunity to experience acupuncture. I can't comment, but because it sounds funny you can rationally tuck it away with other stuff you'd don't want to deal with? Have you got first hand experience of some form of treatment involving meridians from which to banish it as bunk?

btw, that amputee site is kindof funny in that the last chapter presents a set of beliefs as delusional as the rest may possibly be.

But, I will generally agree with your very first post Erik.
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Old 01-23-2006, 04:07 PM   #61
Edwin Neal
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

With respect, most of the experiences and sophisticated methods of training ( i prefer mental or spiritual to psychic please) can be explained in ways other than resorting to some sort of "hype"... it is evident from my personal experience as well as most of the other doubters that there is a level of intuition or sensitivity that becomes more highly developed with practice, but please try not to candy coat it with "Psychobabble"... if you played ball with Michael Jordan he would seem to guess your intention almost magically, but he is just better and more experienced than us... as to homeopathy and chinese medicine and therapuetic touch and all other "alternative" medicines these can be explained by means other than "supernatural" ... the placebo effect has been cited in earlier posts... as to the "methods" SOME "teachers" use to train this "energy reading"... well I suggest that time would be better used by meditation or practice of waza as the "effects" that are being billed as mystical or supernatural powers arise naturally out of practice of any disipline be it basketball, examination of witnesses, or aikido... there is a distinct difference between appearing foolish and being a fool... i am sure i have appeared foolish trying to grasp the aspects of some techniques, but we were given a brain and the power to reason... lets try to use them... if anyone thinks we should do otherwise then they are probably a fool and i suggest they should go join George Dillmans organization... He is a fool who fools the fools who foolishly follow him with their brains in Neutral Or Reverse...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-24-2006, 08:01 AM   #62
DaveS
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
It's like Homeopathy... no one has the least idea why it works. The manner in which they produce the remedies is counter intuitive. Yet the system has been around for over two hundred years and millions of people's direct experience, my one and my family's included, attest to the fact that it works.
To clarify - homeopathy works in the sense that having a homeopathic treatment tends to improve your speed of recovery. However, every reputable double blind test that's been done with homepathic remedies has shown that replacing the remedy with tap water doesn't change this effectiveness. Thus, while we may not understand why homeopathy works (I'm not sure how well the mechanisms by which the placebo effect operates are understood), we do know that the explanation via trace amounts of remedies, the memory of water and so on don't effectively predict what actually happens, and should therefore be rejected. We're not rejecting things because we don't understand them, but because they make predictions which are provably incorrect.

Again, this is similar to what Erik was saying in his reply to the OP. If we come across something (in MA or elsewhere) which is allegedly being done by some means that doesn't jive with western science, then one of the first things to do is ask whether it really is inexplicable, or whether there's a simple conventional explanation. If there is, then it seems reasonable to call bullshit on anyone mystifying it. This is almost the diametric opposite of ignoring things because you don't understand them.
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Old 01-24-2006, 09:27 AM   #63
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

part of the reason the placebo effect works is that we now know that the immune system and the nervous system are in direct communication. Your nervous system, "your belief" can have a direct effect on your immune and hormonal systems. In illness, for some, it might be enough to tip the balance, for others it might not be. It may come down to your personal genetic variability. Other ways the placebo effect works is in reducing the perception of symptoms such as pain but actually prognosis of the outcome is not changed, just the perception. ("I feel better now after I had been taking this for a week...").

We know that in any population a certain percentage will get better, feel better, show improvement, even if nothing is done. No treatment, no sugar pill, nothing. In some cases it may be very low percentage (cancer remission) and in other cases a high percentage (back pain). So most often, the placebo effect, giving someone a sugar pill or tap water, is really just a perception effect. A perception that with treatment I am feeling better, when medical tests show no improvement. The set that feels better overlaps with the set that shows improvement regardless of any treatment, and the result is you will have people taking something that is no better than doing nothing but have gotten better and therefore become a believer in a therapy that for the general population is no more likely to help than doing nothing. There is no deep mysteries in the placebo effect. After all most of the time, all doctors are doing is buying your body time to heal itself. The idea that sometimes your body succeeds without intervention
is not so surprising. For lesser things, that's actually happening for all of us everyday. Afterall, life expectancy has gone way up in last couple of centuries due to development of modern medicine, better understanding of nutrition, and public health such as building sewers and water treatment plants. During all those centuries that we had these "alternative medicines" from China or wherever - the human life expectancy had not changed since the Bronze Age (35 yrs.).

As we move to medicine that is based on your personal genetics in the coming decades, we will get better at determing what medicines/treatments now showing a significant effect for a population will have the best chance of working for you as an individual.

Last edited by kironin : 01-24-2006 at 09:32 AM.

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Old 01-24-2006, 09:43 AM   #64
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

as for the original post,

learning to relax more such that you are more "in tune" with you senses or that you are more aware of what is going on around you is good training. The tendency in conflict situations is to have tunnel vision and become less aware. Sensing someone's Ki, feeling/percieving intent or an attack is simply this, being more receptive through your senses to what is going on around you. It's increasing your perception of natural phenomena.

However if you shutdown one of your senses such as closing your eyes or your ears, don't expect to be as successful in that perception. What you can work on is good, develop using your sense of touch and or hearing.

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Old 01-24-2006, 10:22 AM   #65
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

hmmm, isn't everything we experience as living beings "perception of energy"?
I can feel sunlight without having to know how it works.
I can see different seemingly solid things vibrating at different energetic frequencies=this would be perception of color.
Pain is simply a series of electrical impulses following a path, therefore pain is not real?
So maybe intense concentration simply opens Doors to Perception that are still unmeasureable.remember that 300 years ago pretty much All science was either magic or alchemy, or an act of god.

Q
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Old 01-24-2006, 09:35 PM   #66
Edwin Neal
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Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

Jo you are absolutely right; however i feel that too many times what is basically common sense, and a natural process, or effect, to those of us dicussing this is "over-mystified" by some people... that being said i use the word KI to explain certain aspects of aikido, but i feel i do so responsibly... i don't make patently absurd claims or practice "mumbo-jumbo"... my favorite illustration for this type of thing is George Dillman (did you already guess that?), although i have encountered it in aikidoka as well... as you said ki is a general way of referencing natural energies and processes that occur all around us... as to intense concentration this is a diffucult idea--- don't we first develop MUSHIN, then concentrate or focus (KIME) that energy and awareness... i can't cut open a person and remove your CHAKRA, but as a method of generally indicating a portion of the body the concept is useful... words are sometimes poor conveyors for very broad concepts, and sometimes people get caught up in the nomenclature... my favorite example is from my college philosophy professor take the word RED... if you think of all the possble shades of red (nearly infinite) and add all the OBJECTS that could be red, past present or future this concept appears to be so broad as to be meaningless... yet we all understand (in our individual way) what we mean when we say red... i find that the over mystification of aikido is a veiled attempt to boost EGO ( in the broad sense)... aikido is fundamentally simple and accessible to all by Osensei's design, attempts to make it more mysterious go counter to what i feel was the founders intent...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-24-2006, 09:49 PM   #67
Edwin Neal
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Question Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?

to sensei Ledyard

I've never quite understood why some epeople are so invested in "not being fooled".

with respect... WHAT are you talking about??? the entire practice of aikido is about not being fooled, about perceiveing reality as it really is... we as aikidoka are completely invested in the pursuit of not being fooled!!!


"The Art of Peace is not easy. It is a fight to the finish, the slaying of evil desires and all falsehood within. On occasion the Voice of Peace resounds like thunder, jolting people out of their stupor."
-O'Sensei

Edwin Neal


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