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Old 01-03-2006, 03:21 PM   #26
Jorx
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

I think there's a good chance that Jason will be knocked out. But if he lasts over 2 minutes then Cyborg will probably gas out and Jason will win via late subission or judges decision.
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Old 01-04-2006, 10:56 AM   #27
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
As you can tell I happen to be a doubting Thomas about seeing recognizable Aikido win. Now that I see the site and the pictures- I have even more of a feeling it is going to be as I said. More of the same jujutsu stuff now called "real Aikido."
Please be mindful that those same pictures you are bandying about are NOT aikido. They are Ueshiba doing Daito ryu jujutsu, which he taught, and during the time frame you site in those pictures he was actively teaching, grading, and awarding scrolls for...
Daito ryu jujutsu.
so are you saying that in the middle of a match any technique that mr ueshiba used that came from the daity ryu repertoire he couldn't claim as an aikido tech ?then you can't call irimi nage or shiho nage or many daito ryu techniques a daito ryu technique by your standard because they existed as kung fu techniques long before daito ryu was coined !
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Old 01-04-2006, 02:27 PM   #28
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Hi Jason
Before we get into it ...good luck and I hope you win.

As for a debate
He did not learn it from Kung fu, and yes I agree there are similar things in many arts. But most anyone I know "learned " them from someone in an art and they are attributable to that teacher or line. Make sense? Otherwise we can all chuck it and say anything we do is anything we want to call it. Why call it Aikido?
Why even pick a name?

Its clear that what "he" was doing was definable DR as that is what he had just spent 20+years doing. Not a hodge podge of others things which has been definitively disproved by Stan.
When he chose..after all his many years doing...whatever ..to opne up shop...what did he do.Not what we thingk not what we want to believe.... what did he actually do?
According to all the interviews he taught
Daito ryu
the scrolls he hands out were
Daito ryu

So what he WAS doing in the photos was
Daito ryu
Now, I am not arguing good, bad, or even. or whos dad can beat up who's dad I could care less. We can talk all day about the weaknesses of Daito ryu or any other art. They all have em.
I am only stating what it was in fact he was doing...then


Now, you can morph anything and call it anything, Just look at all the different forms of Aikido out there. But wouldn't it be Jason's combat Aikido.. A reflection of your work and vision of what you "see" and have learned...and not Ueshiba's ...er...anything?

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-04-2006 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 01-04-2006, 02:46 PM   #29
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Interview with Stan Pranin the premier researcher and documenter of Ueshiba and Aikido

Q.O-sensei also reportedly studied a lot of other koryu arts outside of Daito-ryu.
SP: I would say that that's not true.
If you look at it historically, he went up to Tokyo in 1901 and spent about a year there. During this stay in Tokyo when he was training to become a merchant, he did a little bit of Tenjin Shinryo-ryu jujutsu. It was probably a "machi" dojo, in other words a small dojo in the Asakusa area of Tokyo. He would go there at night, but it was probably about three or four months total since he got very ill with beriberi and had to leave Tokyo and return to Tanabe. He was doing it while working very hard during the day and it was a very brief period of only a few months. It would be difficult to imagine that that had a strong, technical influence.
By the same token when he was in the army, he also began studying Yagyu-ryu jujutsu. There are some questions about what the actual name of the art was. O-sensei referred to it as Yagyu-ryu jujutsu, while [Kisshomaru Ueshiba] Doshu did some research and said it was Goto-ha Yagyu Shingan-ryu or similar name.
He was in the army at the time and also was sent to Manchuria for a part of the time. It was hard for me to imagine him going regularly while being in the army, so I don't know if his training was on the weekends or what. He apparently was enthusiastic about his training but there just weren't the circumstances to allow a detailed study.
He did, however, continue to study a little bit of Yagyu-ryu after he got out of the army, but he was in Tanabe which was a couple of hundred miles away and he had to go up by ferry! Again, maybe he went up three, four, or a half a dozen times, but it wasn't the sort of thing of an intensive study with someone year after year.
Now, he did have a makimono (scroll) as well -- however, it bears no seal. One can only speculate what that meant. Sometimes what happens is that a person would be told to prepare a makimono or have someone prepare it and, for whatever circumstance or reason, the teacher never gets around to signing it. Therefore, the scroll cannot be considered official.
So, it would appear that he did study this Yagyu-ryu form more than the Tenjin Shinryo-ryu jujutsu, but probably at the most he did a year or two.
The other art that he studied, but again not in very much depth, would have been judo. The first description of the teacher who was sent down from the Kodokan to Tanabe by O-sensei's father to teach Morihei and various relatives and friends gave the impression that this judo teacher was somewhat of an expert. It turns out he was 17 years old. I met his wife back in the 1980s and she told me this directly. He could have been a shodan, maximum. Also, O-sensei was involved with other things in this transition phase of his life trying to figure out what he was going to be doing as a career. One of the reasons, according to Doshu, that this judo person was brought in was to help him focus and channel his energies. But O-sensei ended up going to Hokkaido.

So, you have this very brief stint in Tenjin Shinryo Ryu, some training in Yagyu Ryu jujutsu while in the army, a smattering of judo, (with a 17 yr old teacher) and then (20+ yrs in) Daito-ryu. That's it. The impression that he studied many different arts other than Daito-ryu and mastered them is completely false.

end quote
I added the notes in parenthesis for clarity of the information found in all of Stans works.
Read AIkido Journal and Stans related works they are top shelf.

******************************
That interview is here on Aikiweb by Jun.

cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-04-2006 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 01-04-2006, 03:44 PM   #30
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

It is my understanding that once an art deviates enough from its original practice, then it is only respectful to call it something else. IMHO, while many techniques certainly came from Daito-ryu (and have always been acknowledged as such), the emphasis away from purely martial application turned O'Sensei's art into a "do" (way) instead of a "jutsu" (battle art). Since O'Sensei kept a close relationship with his Daito-ryu teacher (Sokaku Takeda) throughout his life, we can assume the name change and focus had some approval.

IMHO, if you look close enough, you will see a lot of Aiki principles already in MMA/UFC/Pride.

Good luck Jason. I'll be cheering form you.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 01-04-2006, 08:28 PM   #31
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Now, you can morph anything and call it anything, Just look at all the different forms of Aikido out there. But wouldn't it be Jason's combat Aikido.. A reflection of your work and vision of what you "see" and have learned...and not Ueshiba's ...er...anything?

Man, for me, this is the point. The name is not important either way - not important enough to keep, not important enough to abandon. The point is that this thing - whatever it is - this "Aikido," that it be YOUR Aikido - reflection of what you see and have learned, that it not be Ueshiba's or Johnson's or Smith's, etc.

In my opinion, Aikido is not a ryu and so it's practitioners should not burden themselves with making an artifact of their art all the while that they are trying to transcend that art (which is necessary for any art to exist at a combat level - in my opinion).

Aikido is pure tool - not a tool you are supposed to culturally kill and then put behind some glass box in some sort of history museum. Since Aikido is not a ryu, its practitioners can and should be motivated by seeking pure transcendence without any worry of losing the art. In fact, the point is to lose the art. In my opinion, that, more than ever, is necessary now - now that Aikido for the most part is more artifact that art - this compounded by the fact that the artifact of Aikido is not even that good of one (martially and/or spiritually speaking). In other words, if Aikido is ever going to regain its martial prowess, and then also its capacity to cultivate the spirit through a martial means, it is going to happen via folks that have abandoned the artifact and have opted instead to lose themselves in the art and thus the art in them. (What was that Osensei quote - about, something like, don't do my Aikido, do your Aikido, or find your own Aikido, etc.???? Didn't it go something like that? That idea seems relevant here.)

Additionally, the gate-keepers of Aikido artifact, which is not a reference to anyone in this thread, and/or even the more open-minded practitioners that would nevertheless like to put some sort of stop to the production of bad or malformed Aikido, have to realize that you don't stop bad Aikido from developing and spreading by making the art an artifact. In a way, in a very real way, both martially and spiritually, to make the art an artifact is one sure way of making everyone's practice suck.

my opinion,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 01-04-2006, 10:58 PM   #32
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

I have to agree with you David.

No one at all can really say what they are doing is REAL Aikido. No-one.

What Aikido was in the first part of the century was one thing. Mid-century another, Today another and in between all of those eras something else.

So which is it that's real?

All the direct students of O'sensei do their own Aikido, and when you learn it, you will eventually do your Aikido. There are basic principles that guide most of us, but even those aren't universal to all Aikido styles and schools.

So to get back on topic, if Jason wants to represent Aikido then more power to him. Just because what he's doing isn't in one of the books you've read doesn't mean it's not Aikido.
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Old 01-05-2006, 01:44 AM   #33
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

I just hope he fights better than his UFC fights, cuz his "five animal style kung fu" looked more like a five animal dance and submit style to me. I mean I think that a traditional 5 animal style would hold up VERY well, and all he did was run, fall, and tapp. Hey best of luck to you, but please be carefull when you say you represent a certain style.Last I checked no one voted you the representitive of the art, and your representation of Kung Fu in the UFC wasnt a real representation at all, yet one of the many instances that other use to laugh at traditional martial artists. Good Luck O'Sensei was the representitve and still is through his teachings.

"When you cease to strive to understand, then you will know without understanding." -- Caine
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Old 01-05-2006, 02:17 AM   #34
Jorx
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Mike I'm sorry but just LOL at that post.
Whateve you call traditional five animal kung fu would look JUST like that. Dance, fall and tap (excellent expression btw, I'll start using that) in sport-MMA.
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Old 01-05-2006, 03:57 AM   #35
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

To be fair to Jason Delucia he did win his first two UFC fights. Following his loss against Royce Gracie I think he went onto defeat Masakatsu Funaki in Pancrase. Funaki was one of Japan's top fighters at that time. That said I am sceptical about how much genuine Aikido we will see in his fight.
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Old 01-05-2006, 04:32 AM   #36
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

I take exception to the style of critisism offerd for Jasons efforts. Jason is real, is serious about his work, would clean the clock of just about everyone on these boards and is very relaxed and just would not say so. He puts his body where just everyone elses mouths are.
Since he doesn't make a big deal out of that....I will

There is a comradery among guys who fight and roll. Also a bit more of a balanced view about physical skills and their application. This leads to a far more realistic self-assessment and ego check. Something I find lacking in many of the martial artist I have met.

Dan
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Old 01-05-2006, 04:55 AM   #37
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
It is my understanding that once an art deviates enough from its original practice, then it is only respectful to call it something else. IMHO, while many techniques certainly came from Daito-ryu (and have always been acknowledged as such), the emphasis away from purely martial application turned O'Sensei's art into a "do" (way) instead of a "jutsu" (battle art). Since O'Sensei kept a close relationship with his Daito-ryu teacher (Sokaku Takeda) throughout his life, we can assume the name change and focus had some approval.

IMHO, if you look close enough, you will see a lot of Aiki principles already in MMA/UFC/Pride.

Good luck Jason. I'll be cheering form you.

Lynn

That Aikido came from Daito ryu was never....neeeever widely ackowledged by anyone. It was also widely denied by everyone in the Ueshiba family. Everything we now know..let me say that again.
EVERYTHING we now know came from the research of Stan Pranin
And he almost got thrown out of Aikido for;
a. just asking the wrong (right) questions
b. simply publishing the answers

Sorry, I just can't let the mans life work go unheralded. The one paragraph in his answer offered above:
So, you have this very brief stint in Tenjin Shinryo Ryu, some training in Yagyu Ryu jujutsu while in the army, a smattering of judo, (under a 17 yr ols shodan) and then (20+yrs) Daito-ryu. That's it. The impression that he studied many different arts other than Daito-ryu and mastered them is completely false.

You would think this was a death blow to the many myth makers out there. All you have to do is read the current boards to understand that the myth makers are still at work. One can only assume the opinions offered from these students are opnions expressed to them from.......somewhere.
Any and all correct information came from Stan. One only needs to have read what was available -before Stan- and then after Stan.

As for mantaining a close relationship? He used to run away when Takeda showed up. Witnessed, revealed and coroberated by so many of his students as to not be denied.

cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-05-2006 at 05:02 AM.
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Old 01-05-2006, 05:24 AM   #38
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Jason good luck, you have quiet the pedigree as Bas would say. IMO anyone who steps up against the likes of Royce Gracie and others (List to long) deserves the utmost respect, give em some kotegaeshi for me (something we see little of in NHB) , next time you are in Japan I will sure to be following your progress. My aikido is not a compliment to former arts to be a weapon in the cage, but I do enjoy the sport and have great respect for all involved except Phil Baroni of course, I just dont like him.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 01-05-2006, 07:44 AM   #39
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Everything we now know..let me say that again.
EVERYTHING we now know came from the research of Stan Pranin...
Actually, Dan, everything YOU know about Aikido came from stan's research. The mere fact that stan may be right about some things seem to grant him absolution in all areas, according to you. The fact is, he isn't right about everything, and he knows it. So do quite a few other people, but apparently, not you. While that is just fine, and while you believe that because people keep things to themselves that means it doesn't exist, what will you do later on when you do find out that stan's research, while wonderful in its effort may not have been 100% on the mark with regards to all his conclusions? Will you re-evaluate your "opinion" and come on back to the aikido boards you post on and give a heart-felt apology? Somehow I don't thinks so. Of course, like stan, I might not be 100% right, either...
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
You would think this was a death blow to the many myth makers out there. All you have to do is read the current boards to understand that the myth makers are still at work. One can only assume the opinions offered from these students are opinions expressed to them from.......somewhere.
Dan, myth maker is such a great term. Somehow it seems that you wake up looking to repeat the same old thing, over and over and over, just one more time (in an Aikido forum, mind you), just to make yourself feel better... try some aspirin, or a mirror, perhaps. Repeating your opinion about someone else's theory doesn't make the world flat, nor give the intelligent designer a new coat & hat. Simply speaking, the fact is that your heart-felt opinions about someone else's theories do not make fact.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Any and all correct information came from Stan. One only needs to have read what was available -before Stan- and then after Stan.
Sounds like stan is just another jesus. Dan, is your middle name john (the baptist) by any chance?
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
As for maintaining a close relationship? He used to run away when Takeda showed up. Witnessed, revealed and corroborated by so many of his students as to not be denied.
Dan, let's face up to facts... just because someone may have considered themselves to have been someone's teacher, doesn't mean they weren't an a$$hole. Other than hemorrhoids, who wants to hang around with an a$$hole, especially one who wants money? As for denials, again, try the mirror.


PS - while I typically enjoy your poignant remarks with regards to technical specifics, irregardless of whether or not I agree or disagree, this public battle with yourself (in aikido forums) with regards to Takeda's role (or place) in Aikido, while well noted on the boards, is quite a tired tirade about which you might want to seek some counseling. While Takeda Sensei was certainly the pillar of Daito-Ryu, and while there is certainly a relationship between the two arts, mistakenly assigning him the father of Aikido is akin to saying that the grandfather is the father of the grandson. I do believe we call that incest, something which isn't looked well upon, nor which you should be boasting... Again no one ever denied that there wasn't a relationship, but no matter how many times you repeat it out loud, Aikido and Daito-Ryu, like the father and the son, are not one and the same… sorry.



.
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Old 01-05-2006, 07:50 AM   #40
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Jason, I wish you the best of luck in your upcoming bout. I'll be rooting for you.

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Old 01-05-2006, 09:32 AM   #41
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Quote:
Mike Fugate wrote:
I mean I think that a traditional 5 animal style would hold up VERY well, and all he did was run, fall, and tapp.
In the early days of the UFC, EVERY Style practically did that against Royce Gracie.

Royce is a great Martial artist, so to say that type of comment is ridiculous. If he got beat by some slacker, it would be an appropriate comment.

I'd like to know the name of anyone who did 5 animal style Kung-Fu (or any other style of Kung Fu) that has ever beaten a Gracie.
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Old 01-05-2006, 03:56 PM   #42
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

I read the UFC rules and they state that small joint manipulation is not allowed. Doesn't that eliminate a lot of Aikido techniques?
How will Jason Delucia be able to use Aikido in a MMA competition?
I don't even think Shomen-ate is allowed.
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Old 01-05-2006, 04:50 PM   #43
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Bla bla... it was allowed in the beginning however that's how the sport evolved. Anyway Jason is NOT fighting in the UFC now. I do not know the rules for that promotion which he is fighting in...
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Old 01-05-2006, 05:20 PM   #44
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Perhaps the small joint breaks were dropped so mma organizations could get fighting licences in nevada, etc.

Not a big fan of watchn 2 grown men clammering about in a granny panties in a small ring. Nor do I feel it represents actual combat, but it is what what its, some brutal encounters with top notch athletes. Gimme me some eye gouges, bites, kicks to the jimmy, broken fingers, thats a real fight. Certainly wouldnt pay to go or watch one, but riding the stationary bike while watching spike tv's coverage of ufc is something I do every now and then.

Dont make me, make you, grab my wrist.
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Old 01-05-2006, 05:29 PM   #45
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Quote:
Saji Jamakin wrote:
I read the UFC rules and they state that small joint manipulation is not allowed. Doesn't that eliminate a lot of Aikido techniques?
How will Jason Delucia be able to use Aikido in a MMA competition?
I don't even think Shomen-ate is allowed.
Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
Bla bla... it was allowed in the beginning however that's how the sport evolved. Anyway Jason is NOT fighting in the UFC now. I do not know the rules for that promotion which he is fighting in...
Cage Rage rules are the same as UFC, except for a weird new "open guard" rule that isn't particularly relevant to this discussion.

"No small joint manipulation" rules out grabbing a finger or two and cranking them, for instance, but doesn't rule out irimi and ikkyo and tons of Aikido techniques.

The only real question is whether we'll be able to recognize enough Aikido techniques when he's in there going against the highly resistant Cyborg for people to be able to say "Yes, Jason used Aikido" or even just, "Yes, I saw some Aikido in there," or whether the principles will be so buried amid a sea of "whatever works" that people won't notice it.

It'll be a little while before we get to see it in the US at all, since we have to wait for them to put up the video (a few days after the fight, if we're lucky). Maybe we'll be really lucky and someone covering the fight for CageWarriors.com will report on Aikido moves in the play-by-play. If you know anyone there that you might be able to influence to report on the Aikido aspect, that would be great.
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Old 01-05-2006, 10:41 PM   #46
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

How many people think that Aikido will look like Aikido in a fight?
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Old 01-06-2006, 11:08 AM   #47
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

We'll probably have to look pretty close. My sensei trains us to perform techniques with subtlety; sometimes observers don't get to know what happened.

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Old 01-06-2006, 02:03 PM   #48
Mike Fugate
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Who wants to see Steven Seagal vs. Jason Delucia? I got 20 bucks on Take Sensei

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Old 01-06-2006, 02:04 PM   #49
Mike Fugate
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Thumbs down Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Who wants to see Steven Seagal vs. Jason Delucia? I got 20 bucks on Take Sensei

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Old 01-06-2006, 02:13 PM   #50
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

I'll take that bet. 20 bucks on DeLucia.
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