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Old 11-10-2005, 10:14 AM   #26
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
Location: Gateshead
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 916
United Kingdom
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Re: The Power of Kiai

Yar!

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 11-15-2005, 09:12 AM   #27
Steve Mullen
Dojo: White Rose (Sunderland)
Location: Washington
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 270
England
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Re: The Power of Kiai

I was watchin mind, body and kick ass moves last night and it was all about ki/chi and is it real. They went to Japan and talked to this master who concentrated on an esoteric form of martial arts. Amongst other things he was reputed to be able to stop a persons attack using only his voice.

So next scene and a guy draws his katana and moves to cut shomen and this guy lets out a kiai like you have never heard. It wasn't especially loud but it came from his toes it was so deep, the uki crumples to his knees where he stays for the next few minutes. The reason this works (according to the sensei in question) is due to the body being 70% water, he can vibrate the water in your body with his voice which robs you of your power and (according to the uki) makes you feel pretty much as sick as a dog.

His major achievement came a few years ago when after much practice he managed to ring a temple bell from across the room using his kiai, a feat he promptly demonstrated several times. it was a real eye opener to watch and really interesting.

Oh and HIS sensei could kill small birds with his kiai, madness

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
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Old 11-15-2005, 09:15 AM   #28
j0nharris
Dojo: Kododan Aikido USA
Location: Radford Virginia
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 198
United_States
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Re: The Power of Kiai

Quote:
John Boswell wrote:
...O'Sensei instructed the student to go outside and kiai at the birds until he (student) was able to knock a sparrow out of a tree.
...
Try that now, & you'll have PETA protesting outside the dojo in no time flat!

jon harris

Life is a journey...
Now, who took my @#$%! map?!
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Old 11-15-2005, 10:15 AM   #29
Mike Haftel
Location: Hokkaido
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 87
Japan
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Re: The Power of Kiai

Quote:
Steve Mullen wrote:
I was watchin mind, body and kick ass moves last night and it was all about ki/chi and is it real. They went to Japan and talked to this master who concentrated on an esoteric form of martial arts. Amongst other things he was reputed to be able to stop a persons attack using only his voice.

So next scene and a guy draws his katana and moves to cut shomen and this guy lets out a kiai like you have never heard. It wasn't especially loud but it came from his toes it was so deep, the uki crumples to his knees where he stays for the next few minutes. The reason this works (according to the sensei in question) is due to the body being 70% water, he can vibrate the water in your body with his voice which robs you of your power and (according to the uki) makes you feel pretty much as sick as a dog.

His major achievement came a few years ago when after much practice he managed to ring a temple bell from across the room using his kiai, a feat he promptly demonstrated several times. it was a real eye opener to watch and really interesting.

Oh and HIS sensei could kill small birds with his kiai, madness
I'm gonna have to call BS on that one. In order to do this, you would have to know the resonant frequency of a particular person's body (it is different for everone because it is based on size, mass, and density) and then produce a vocal note with just the right amplitude and fundamental frequency to build up resonance over a long period of time.

Every object in the world has a particular resonant frequency where, if subjected to this frequency over a certain amount of time, will build up resonance in the object and basically destroy said object. The same thing happens with bridges during high winds and marching armies, a wine glass and an opera singer, glass windows during earthquakes, etc...

A scientist even calculated the fundamental frequency of the earth itself, and if it were possible to build a device to vibrate at that frequecy over a long long period of time, the earth would theoretically vibrate itself to dust. But that's not gonna happen.

And neither is someone yelling at a frequency in order to cause another person to collapse do to resonance.

Plus, the human range of hearing is 20hz-20,000hz. If you heard the sensei produce a vocal note, then it was inbetween this range and would have absolutely no effect on a person. Plus, a human does not have the ability to produce ever frequency between this range.

I remember watching a the show Mythbusters, and they did this experiment where they had like 50 sub woofers stacked up around a person and they played every frequency between like 5hz-30,000 which is way beyond the human range of hearing and the only effect they could feel was high air pressure due to the low frequencies.

Last edited by Mike Haftel : 11-15-2005 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 11-16-2005, 03:50 AM   #30
Chuck.Gordon
Location: Frederick, MD
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 509
United_States
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Re: The Power of Kiai

It's amazing what humans can be trained to do ...

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Old 11-16-2005, 05:21 AM   #31
Mike Haftel
Location: Hokkaido
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 87
Japan
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Re: The Power of Kiai

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
It's amazing what humans can be trained to do ...
It is impossible for resonance to build up in the amount of time that passes during a kiai. IF it were possible for a person to generate a vocal note that could do this, THEN it would take a much longer time to do so...like a few minutes at the least.

The military has done weapons testing using sound as well. Either incredibly high or incredibly low frequencies have effects on people other than just causing pain to the ear due to pitch and volume. And the effects were minor at the most.

Experiments have been done where a person was subjected to every frequency of sound for long periods of time from 1hz all the way up to 30,000+ and nothing.

I don't believe a person can generate a frequency that could accomplish anything otherwise.
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Old 11-16-2005, 06:10 AM   #32
Chuck.Gordon
Location: Frederick, MD
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 509
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Arrow Re: The Power of Kiai

Missed my point, Mike. I meant how easy it is to train humans to be gullible enough to believe stuff like that.

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Old 11-16-2005, 07:17 AM   #33
Mike Haftel
Location: Hokkaido
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 87
Japan
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Re: The Power of Kiai

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
Missed my point, Mike. I meant how easy it is to train humans to be gullible enough to believe stuff like that.
Ah! That I can agree with.
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Old 01-03-2006, 07:27 AM   #34
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
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Re: The Power of Kiai

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote:
IMHO, a lot of the power behind a good kiai comes from diaphram breathing. When you inhale, pull the stomache out to pull the diaphram down creating a vacuum in the lower lunges. As you exhale, snap the stomache back in. Eventually, put sound to it. Like anything else, no secrets, just takes practice.

Also, in Aikido, remember to time it with uke's transitions, so when you startle them, they are already off balance.

This is not too.... Kiai. That is a great way to have someone relax!
Ki-ai and the meaning behind it can best be accomplished when you do the opposite of what you decribe here. Push the stomach -out- when you Kiai. But actually its what you do to get the air in and what you do when it -is- in before you explode it out that is most important. Odd that it is in many Koryu weapons arts. Wonder why?
As for sound effects, how about a 270 lb guy grabbing a 150lb.guy and trying to throw him and the little guy "whispers" it or "lets" it out (key word) and the big guy just stands there frozen or collapses?

Breath-power is not in startling or scaring the intent out of someone.
Kiai is, in fact what it says it is.
And where you say "Like in many things there are no secrets."

One the one hand I agree- on the other I ask why we just don't listen. This is old, old, knowledge. What were they trying to tell us?

cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-03-2006 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 01-03-2006, 08:38 PM   #35
Ed Shockley
Dojo: aikikai of Philadelphia
Location: philadelphia
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 84
United_States
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Re: The Power of Kiai

I humbly offer an opinion because I don't feel that I have developed kiai power. I also train in a dojo which is unusually quiet. Lots of laughter but not much Kiai. Our Sensei is, however, an acclaimed breath expert with well received "Ki breathing" tapes featured in martial arts and fitness magazines and we do extensive breathing practice as well as devote one class per week entirely to Ki breathing. I believe this is why my dojo is so quiet. Every day we pay enormous attention to connecting breath to technique. The point of connection is the practice of inhaling tori and the throw or osae is exhaling. Our iaido practice is similarly done in one long breath. I say all this to suggest that Kiah may not be a sound chosen and practiced, shouted or whispered but rather the body organically creating the sound that accompanies the breath of the throw. I have witnessed many loud and unusual articulations in my travels but have "felt" the scream of breath when it was connected to a technique whether it escaped as sound or not. If we master the yin/yo of technique then I suspect articulation will take care of itself.
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