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Old 12-22-2005, 11:31 AM   #1
Roy Dean
 
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A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

All,

Just read that Jason Delucia will be fighting Evangelista Cyborg at Cage Rage 15 in Europe. This is a great card and it will be good to see Jason back in the mix. Go Jason!

http://www.fightsport.fr/modules.php...article&sid=62

Roy Dean
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Old 12-22-2005, 11:39 AM   #2
Brehan Crawford
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

wow... is Cyborg really that guy's last name?
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Old 12-22-2005, 04:13 PM   #3
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

No.

Evangelista Santos

Btw: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everybody.
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Old 12-26-2005, 07:02 AM   #4
DH
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
All,

Just read that Jason Delucia will be fighting Evangelista Cyborg at Cage Rage 15 in Europe. This is a great card and it will be good to see Jason back in the mix. Go Jason!

http://www.fightsport.fr/modules.php...article&sid=62

Roy Dean


When Jason was fighting locally he was into (5 animal) kung fu. When he lost to Gracie he started studying jujutsu. Apparently he is now exploring body work principles, and how they apply to aikido -which is a fairly new study to him.
a. Don't state this as an "aikido" guy doing MMA. that is simply not accurate. In fact it is misleading.
b. Don't expect to see anything remotely resembling Aikido technique win in MMA.


Cheers
Dan

cheers
San

Last edited by DH : 12-26-2005 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 12-26-2005, 11:57 AM   #5
Roy Dean
 
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Dan,

Yes, you're right, when Jason first fought Royce in the Gracie in Action tapes, he studied 5 Animal Kung Fu. Then he started studying BJJ, and chose to fight his teacher in the UFC (which may have been why Royler was screaming at Royce to not let go of the armlock after he tapped repeatedly).

Why would it be inaccurate or misleading to state that he is an "Aikido guy", when in fact he teaches Aikido, sells Combat Aikido instructionals, posts on Aikido forums and makes statements like the following:

http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread...7537#post37537

"ONCE A REPORTER ASKED ME WHAT MY FOCUSS WAS ,AND WHY IT WASN'T THE TITLE BELT.MY ANSWER ,THAT I KNEW IF I COULD TRANSMUTE TO AIKIDO, THAT I COULD HAVE ANY TITLE BELT ,BEAT ANY ONE ,DO ANY THING.I KNEW MY CAREER WAS SUFFERING FROM THE CONVERSION ,AND I DIDN'T CARE .I KNEW THAT MR. UESHIBA WAS CONSIDERED TO BE IN HIS PRIME NEAR 50 YEARS OLD AND WAS EFFECTIVE TILL THE DAY HE DIED .KNOWING WHAT I KNOW NOW ,I SEE WHY .AND WHEN FIGHTERS OF MY AGE RETIRE I CAN BEAT THEM AND THEIR STUDENTS ,BECAUSE OF THE ART ,NOT THE EGO."

Don't get me wrong, Dan. I'm a Jason DeLucia fan, and followed him from UFC to Pancrase back to UFC and now in his Aiki phase. Of course, when he offers to demonstrate the effectiveness of Aikido through statements like this, how could you NOT consider him an Aikidoka?:

"the best fight for me to show it on would be ''chuck liddel''a real martial artist"

http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread...6&page=6&pp=25
(BTW, the thread above is quite good at times, it offers a more in depth perspective of Jason's strategy for implementing Aikido in an NHB environment)

If he's offering to show the effectiveness in Aikido in an NHB setting, then I would consider him an "Aikido Guy". Plus, he's likely the most well rounded Aikidoka since Mochizuki. I think it will be very eye opening for such a well rounded martial artist who considers himself an Aikidoka to show other Aikidoka where the real blending happens once the heat is on inside the cage.

Respectfully,

Roy Dean
www.jiaiaikido.com
www.royharris.com
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Old 12-26-2005, 01:09 PM   #6
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

I'm going to be extremely interested to see this. I too have a deal of respect for Jason. However from the clips I've seen from the website, the stuff that looks like it would work in the cage is jiu jitsu and the stuff that is cribbed from Aikido doesn't (to me) look like it would work (in a cage at least). It's going to be fascinating to see how he goes, and what techniques are actually used.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 12-26-2005, 01:25 PM   #7
Jorge Garcia
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Do we need to say that "it will be fascinating to see what Aikido techniques he uses", rather than how "Aikido will work in a cage"? I don't think that there will be Aikido demonstrated in that cage!

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 12-26-2005, 02:22 PM   #8
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Seeing that aikido "physical" principles are universal in nature, I think it is safe to say that it is easy to see how they could be attached to any technique that is correctly applied. That said, as aikido as practiced by most is a philosophical based art, I'd say it would be impossible to apply this in a competition such as this.

That said, I have seen Jason's techniques, and look forward to seeing how they are employed in this fight., aikido or not.

Something tells me we will be debating this for months after the fight with no resolution in sight!

Good luck Jason!
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Old 12-26-2005, 06:28 PM   #9
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Well I expect that sooner or later Jason will address the questions.
After that we will all see the fight.
My views will be "aikido is a system and a recognizable art irrespective of those who claim everyting they do is sooo..different." I am hoping to see recognizable things that are practiced in the dojo and recogniziable as "Aikido" done in that cage...and not just just lip service.
Anyone could do the same thing with single.double leg takedowns, naked chokes and kicks and call it... .well.... what ever they want. saying "Martial arts are without form"...blah blah blah.

I have to be honest in that I expect anyone exhibiting Aikido technique to get their asses kicked in short order. Just a view
Jason is experienced and may be able to energize his Aikido quite well.
cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-26-2005 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 12-27-2005, 06:15 PM   #10
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
Yes, you're right, when Jason first fought Royce in the Gracie in Action tapes, he studied 5 Animal Kung Fu. Then he started studying BJJ, and chose to fight his teacher in the UFC (which may have been why Royler was screaming at Royce to not let go of the armlock after he tapped repeatedly).
Urban Legend Alert! Yes, Jason was mainly a 5 Animal Kung Fu guy and called himself that when he took the Gracie Challenge and fought Royce in Royce's dojo (the fight on the Gracie Jiu Jitsu in Action II tape). Afterwards, Jason says, a friend of Rickson's taught him a lot so he'd make a good account of himself in UFC. He was INVITED to fight in UFC because Royce and the others thought he should be in it; it's not that he "chose to fight his teacher."

And Royce held onto the armbar because there'd been cases when people later said they hadn't tapped -- Jason thinks it was perfectly reasonable for Royce to have held it, and there are no hard feelings between them and never were.
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Old 12-27-2005, 06:28 PM   #11
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
When Jason was fighting locally he was into (5 animal) kung fu. When he lost to Gracie he started studying jujutsu. Apparently he is now exploring body work principles, and how they apply to aikido -which is a fairly new study to him.
a. Don't state this as an "aikido" guy doing MMA. that is simply not accurate. In fact it is misleading.
Don't be so quick to dismiss Jason's Aikido background. He spent 10 years studying Aikido in Japan and here; and as a pro fighter without a "normal" 9-5 job during those years, he had the luxury of training several hours per day every day. And he's still studying and refining his technique. I've watched him in class and training on his own, and his moves are easily recognizable as O'Sensei's.

As for whether you'll see something that looks like Aikido win in MMA, it depends on your threshhold for what you consider looking like Aikido. It has to be Aikido techniques against a seriously resisting opponent, which means you can bet it'll include serious atemi and techniques that aren't generally used in a lot of Aikido classes. But that doesn't mean they're not Aikido -- we've got some pictures on aikidog.com of O'Sensei doing front and side chokes

http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikid...b33253bd7c0 4

and of another old master (Keith identified him as Terada Kiyoyuki) doing arm bars and pulling guard:

http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikid...1eb33253bd7c04
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Old 12-27-2005, 07:10 PM   #12
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I am hoping to see recognizable things that are practiced in the dojo and recogniziable as "Aikido" done in that cage...and not just just lip service.
Anyone could do the same thing with single.double leg takedowns, naked chokes and kicks and call it... .well.... what ever they want. saying "Martial arts are without form"...blah blah blah.
I don't have a dog in this fight at all, but it's quite common for someone to do the standard "kick-punch" or the standard jiu-jitsu matwork and call it whatever they want... particularly if they happen to win. This phenomenon of calling the standard (and obviously so) stuff by some other name has gotten out of hand in the last number of years. We see standard kick-punch being called "Tai Chi" or "White Crane" or "Fu-style Boxing" and we see standard matwork being attributed to Fukien Ground Boxing, etc. The giveaway is always that it never looks like anything but the standard fare, despite the "internal principles" that are supposedly being exhibited. If it looks like kick-punch, you can pretty much bet it's just kick-punch; if it looks like jiu-jitsu matwork, you're pretty safe in betting that there is no more "blending" or whatever than you'd see in most matwork. Some of these things turn into sort of embarrassing spiels.

The other side of the coin that I've seen a fair number of times is for some style 'leader' or 'teacher' to adopt some natural and aggressive fighter into the 'system' and then hang all of his wins on 'the system'. This is also embarrassing.... particularly when you have some losers in the dojo also claiming how great the guy is using 'the system', when it never panned out for them even on a good day.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-27-2005, 07:35 PM   #13
Roy Dean
 
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Wendy,

Thank you for the clarification, and it's good to hear that there were no hard feelings between Jason and Royce.

Roy Dean
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Old 12-28-2005, 07:08 AM   #14
DH
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

HI Roy
I'd think you'll find that the majority (not all) of guys who fight are well balanced and self-effacing about their wins and losses- the professional ones even more so. You can see the same aplomb among many athletes. Ya do your best ya take your chances.
It is more typical to see the martial artists who are a bit weird about things. Jason did his homework and gave and took his shots and is level headed.
Wendy thanks for the history.. That means last I saw him (about ten years ago in my Dojo) he must have gone to Japan and studied Aikido.
As you can tell I happen to be a doubting Thomas about seeing recognizable Aikido win. Now that I see the site and the pictures- I have even more of a feeling it is going to be as I said. More of the same jujutsu stuff now called "real Aikido."
Please be mindful that those same pictures you are bandying about are NOT aikido. They are Ueshiba doing Daito ryu jujutsu, which he taught, and during the time frame you site in those pictures he was actively teaching, grading, and awarding scrolls for...
Daito ryu jujutsu.
Sorry, it's just that if you want to be taken seriously you need to know your facts. Anyone who has read the research and knows the "real Aikido" history already knows this.
I refer you to Aikido Journal, Stan Pranin, Conversations with Aikido Masters, and conversations with Daito ryu masters.
In there- you will read interviews with "the real Aikido masters" You know.... those you are talking about and showing doing the chokes.
Page after page you will read things like this.

"So, Sensei so and so. During the times you were training with O' sensei and those Budo photos were taken, what were you doing?"
"We were doing Daito ryu"

What was Ueshibas teaching?

"He was teaching Daito ryu. Would you like to see my scroll?"

Over, and over, and over, it's truly embarrassing for the Ueshiba family. Which was why Stan was asked to stop many times.

Then he went to Tokimune Takeda.
"Sensei, how long was Ueshiba studying Daito ryu with your father Sokaku?
"Wait, let look together....." Out from the back comes a trunk. Filled with 35 volumes of eimoroku (student enrollment registers). Who is in the book with his own stamp for 23 years?
Ueshiba Morihei
Up to when"
1936. before, during, and AFTER......those famous photos....

So if ya want to tell me Jason is calling Daito ryu the "real Aikido "
I can agree with that.
Just don't tell me its what they are doing in Aikido dojo across the land on a daily basis.

Mike Sigman writes
This phenomenon of calling the standard (and obviously so) stuff by some other name has gotten out of hand in the last number of years.


Actually It seems its old news, and Ueshiba was a master at it. He just got caught and called on it.
Thank goodness for honesty and open minded research.
There is a shortage of it with men wanting to hang on to what they hold so dear that it blinds the truth from them. Something which, in and of itself, is old news but I see it all the time.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-28-2005 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 12-28-2005, 08:06 AM   #15
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

I think since aikido is tied more to philosophy than technique, then this argument becomes somewhat pointless. I think Mike Sigman does a good job in his post of discussing this.

Aikido uses martial techniques and methodology to teach the philosophy, not the other way around. So to say someone will use aikido in the ring, a tournament, a fight? How do you do that? that is fight with a philosophy?

I use techniques commonly associated with BJJ and karate to demonstrate Aikido principles/philosophy too! I use the same techniques many times incorporated into my MMA fighitng....what is the point of labeling the techniques this or that?

The only reason I can see associating or labeling something as "aikido" in this type of scenario it to appease ego or to increase your marketing potential to prospective students.

Why can't we just let aikido be what it is?

Again, I bet we will be arguing this for a long time!
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Old 12-28-2005, 08:30 AM   #16
DH
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

It's the easy out Kevin.
It lets anyone do or say anything they wish as it may apply to "their aikido"
The path of least resistance can be to open a phalanx, let the enemy come at you and absorb his incoming charge and then out flank him and kill every one of them. To which you hear "Ah…this is MY Aikido.
While they twirl and wrist lock and deny they do that too. Saying "That"….. is not MY Aikido
Just go and watch the aikido expo thingy's with everyone expressing a different view while they all look remarkably the same.
Taken to its extreme then…..you cannot call the Aikido movement anything. It has successfully talked its way into being meaningless.
It is not any one-thing so it isn't anything. There is no real Aikido..its gaflooey -do.

I think that notion is absurd and it speaks for itself. Aikido is what it is and is recognizable and just has variations on a theme.


So now we get to see Jason do jujutsu..apparently using old photos for evidence that this existed in it's history ala.. `1935 Daito ryu photos.... now morphed to fit a modern cage fight and call that his "real aikido."
So what else is new?
Whatever
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-28-2005 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 12-28-2005, 09:04 AM   #17
Mike Sigman
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I think that notion is absurd and it speaks for itself. Aikido is what it is and is recognizable and just has variations on a theme.


So now we get to see Jason do jujutsu..apparently using old photos for evidence that this existed in it's history ala.. `1935 Daito ryu photos.... now morphed to fit a modern cage fight and call that his "real aikido."
Well, Aikido has its own curriculum, etc. Technically, someone could claim that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is simply a "variation" of judo or one of the jiu-jitsu ryu. Daito Ryu had its roots, as well.... are we going to say that there is no such thing as Daito Ryu? Instead of beating the drum that Aikido is simply Daito Ryu, why don't we leave the hair-splitting alone and get to more substantive issues? Just a suggestion, FWIW.

Mike
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Old 12-28-2005, 09:25 AM   #18
DH
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Instead of beating the drum that Aikido is simply Daito Ryu, why don't we leave the hair-splitting alone and get to more substantive issues? Just a suggestion


Aikido isn't Daito ryu. Where'd ya get that one?
Aikido -came- from Daio ryu.
As for the morphed history lesson expressed in the pictures
Fact:
The pictures are of Ueshiba doing Daito ryu --No-t Aikido
When he was actively teaching Daito ryu
When he was still actively studying it


That's all.
FWIW I don't beat the drum for any one thing. I haven't for a long time now. DR, AIkido, the CMA whatever......I don't want each or several to claim to be something it isn't or wasn't.
I just don't let the truth of Ueshiba's training which is definitive and documented get morphed into something it wasn't.
Many have tried-they still are.
Citing material and then referencing it erroneously isn't "hair splitting" Mike. I would expect truly neutral and open research people to be interested in factual observations and then welcoming it. People like that are not trying to force-fit something into their own agenda.
Ueshiba's history is documented, cross referenced, open for review. I suggest anyone having something worth reading or looking into contact Stan Pranin. He would be happy to see anything worth looking at that hasn't been thoroughly reviewed before now.
cheers
Dan
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Old 12-28-2005, 09:38 AM   #19
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Dan, I think there are very few people in Aikido that don't know Ueshiba's roots were in Daito Ryu. You're preaching to the choir.

Mike
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Old 12-28-2005, 09:59 AM   #20
Devon Natario
 
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

No offense to anyone here, but if a person was to try an use the Aikido I learned, they would not last a round in the octagon.

The Aikido I learned was about blending and manipulating energy, not colliding head on with force on force.

We also did not cover punches and kicks enough to be effective kickers and punchers. We also covered no groundfighting at all.

I personally could not call doing a few of the techniques, "Doing Aikido."

My curriculum is very Aikido based, but I still call it Jujitsu for the simple fact that I teach to be agressive and make the techniques work. Without harmonizing that energy, it is not Aikido.

I think everyone should agree though that the marketing Jason is giving Aikido is a great thing for the instructors out there. Think of the great things the Octagon brought the gracies or any style of Jujitsu for that matter.

Again, no offense to anyone, I do not think the Octagon is a place for a pure Aikidoist. This is why it has become MMA over the years.

Devon Natario
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Old 12-28-2005, 01:51 PM   #21
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Quote:
I think everyone should agree though that the marketing Jason is giving Aikido is a great thing for the instructors out there. Think of the great things the Octagon brought the gracies or any style of Jujitsu for that matter.
I think the marketing that Jason is giving himself is good business for him.

as far as aikido, it may be good business for a few weeks, but I hate to think about people coming to aikido with the wrong idea or wrong perspective about the expectations they hope to acheive out of a typical aikido dojo. They will be let down for sure if they are looking at it for a MMA perspective.

I applaud what Jason is doing for the sake of Jason. Frankly I am doing the same thing for my art and aikido, but I also don't hold myself out as an TMA aikido instructor with it either. (For the record, I don't believe Jason is either from what I can tell, he uses the term "Combat Aikido".)

Yea the dynamic in the octagon does not fit within the paradigm of aikido very well. While principles may be applied, not the philosophy of aikido. I don't think Jason has said anything contrary to that either in the past that I can see.

Also, the Gracies brought the octagon to the public, not the other way around. It was marketing on their part (UFC 1). That said, you won't find them fighting the same way today that they did back then either as the game has changed a great deal. Things evolve, the Gracies have evovled to!

I really don't understand why we want to limit ourselves in "labels" anyway? Daito Ryu, aikido, judo, BJJ whatever....I believe in using many different methodologies for training to improve myself as a martial artist!

If I were to fight in the Octagon, I'd develop a game plan and strategy that would work best for that scenario, drawing from whatever worked...(MMA). I certainly would not limit myself to the typical aikido paradiqm or methodolgy.
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Old 12-28-2005, 05:01 PM   #22
DH
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Dan, I think there are very few people in Aikido that don't know Ueshiba's roots were in Daito Ryu. You're preaching to the choir.

Mike
All you have to do is read the above web site (with the pictures) information and and then about 500 pages worth of questions and misinformed statements on the Aikdio journal website to prove yourself wrong.
Folks who often accuse others of preaching to the choir are IN the choir in the first place.
They forgot the rest of the audience who haven't heard the sermon.
BTW that is meant to be compliment..before you tell me I am attacking you personally....again.

Gents, and ladies...

I think what Jason is attempting is fine as well-on both fronts. We'll all have to wait and see if it looks anything like Aikido.
FWIW I think Aikido could use a stronger dose of its foundations in internal skills ..not more jujutsu and P/K arts.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-28-2005 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 12-28-2005, 05:19 PM   #23
Devon Natario
 
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I really don't understand why we want to limit ourselves in "labels" anyway? Daito Ryu, aikido, judo, BJJ whatever....I believe in using many different methodologies for training to improve myself as a martial artist!
I agree, but I have found many here that don't.

Devon Natario
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Old 12-28-2005, 06:39 PM   #24
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

probably because many people's goals here are to become good aikidoka, which aikido is the best art and methodology to acheive that end state. Nothing wrong with that goal, frankly I think it is one that is very worthwhile. Why waste your time doing anything else if this is your goal.

Others though, myself included, have other reasons for doing what we do. I don't pretend that aikido can be everything that I want it to. I also don't think aikido is a "lacking" art either, it just is good for what it is intended to be.

Where we run into problems is when people try to project on to aikido other goals, and expectations on to the art. Conflict arises as well as disappointment, and lack of esteem/confidence. These are the big issues I see constantly with aikidoka that are confused with what they want in life, with aikido, and martial arts in general.

Good discussion!
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Old 12-28-2005, 10:20 PM   #25
Shannon Frye
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Re: A Chance to see Aikido in MMA

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Dan, I think there are very few people in Aikido that don't know Ueshiba's roots were in Daito Ryu. You're preaching to the choir.

Mike

I've been in various martial arts for about 25 years now, and just started in Aikido a few months ago. I've "heard" that the founder took a bunch of jujitsu, modified it, and called it aikido. As a newcomer to the art, or "newest member of the choir", I had no idea about Daito ryu or aikido history. I appreaciate Dan's history lesson.

Shannon
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