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Old 01-27-2003, 02:54 PM   #1
willy_lee
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"Mass Attack" video

Hi everybody,

I found this pretty interesting video clip of multiple-attacker strategies with a "street" kind of flavor. Neat stuff; looking at aikido multiple uke randori in a slightly different way.

The first half is all about how *not* to deal with multiple attackers; the second half shows the better way.

If you'd like to see it, go to
http://www.atienzakali.com/pages/videogallery2.html and look at the first video link from the top, entitled "Atienza Kali Mass Attack Strategies Video".

Thoughts?

=wl
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Old 01-27-2003, 03:28 PM   #2
JMCavazos
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looks like aikido to me!
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Old 01-28-2003, 04:51 AM   #3
ian
 
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Absolutely - apart from the soundtrack I though it was excellent. Also shows things at a realsitic speed and why we don't really do 'ground-work' in aikido.

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 01-28-2003, 05:18 AM   #4
paw
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Quote:
why we don't really do 'ground-work' in aikido
Others, however, do...

Ground Survival
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Old 01-28-2003, 05:56 AM   #5
ian
 
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Although the blatent advertising seems interesting Paul, I would consider that either of the two people grappling on the video cover would be dead or incapacitated in a multiple attack situation. I often consider the question of 'what technique do you do when you've been taken to the ground' similar to the question 'what technique do you do when you've been knocked unconcious'. I think all training helps and gives an insight, but to take any fight to the ground is very dangerous, especially for lighter combatants and in multiple attacks.

I'd be intersted in any particular tips you have.

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 01-28-2003, 06:55 AM   #6
ross_l
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I noticed a lot of problems with this video. I won't go into them all but here's two that really stuck out. The part where he was running away and suddenly stopped to confront his attackers. Why stop running? It looked like he had a good lead. Unless you're injured or really slow, keep running! Secondly, the part at the very end where he has fell all his attackers and then chooses to "finish off" one of them while they are down, from behind no less. That is going to get you in big trouble. It's no longer self defense and you've become the attacker. Better hope that he doesn't die.
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Old 01-28-2003, 08:43 AM   #7
paw
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Ian,

I don't want to start an apolegetic for ne waza. If you don't think it has value or don't enjoy training ne waza, don't train it. No skin off my teeth.

Frankly, if I knew of another video that addressed groundwork and multiple attackers (say, something from Mits Yamashita Sensei) I would have posted that link instead.

For groundwork, it depends on the context to determine what strategy is best for non-sporting environments. Generally, the strategy is to disengage from the ground and return to standing, but there are situations where that isn't the case. A number of BJJ instructors, teach basic defensive open guard techniques that would allow a law enforcement officer to bring their weapon to bear if knocked to the ground and the suspect(s) continue to attack, for example.

In any event, I'm sure both George Ledyard and Steven Miranda, who post here from time to time, can give other examples of groundwork in self-defense. The points are, there are aikido instructors who do address groundwork within an aikido structure and people who address groundwork within a multiple attacker framework.

Finally, Ross raises some points worth considering.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 01-28-2003, 10:43 AM   #8
willy_lee
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Quote:
Ross Lewandowski (ross_l) wrote:
I noticed a lot of problems with this video. I won't go into them all but here's two that really stuck out. The part where he was running away and suddenly stopped to confront his attackers. Why stop running? It looked like he had a good lead. Unless you're injured or really slow, keep running!
Keep in mind that this is a video meant to illustrate, not an actual situation. Also, he may have looked like he had a good lead, but even so, consider this: he may have seen that ahead of him was a dead end. Or he may have realized that he couldn't outrun his attackers and decided it was better to stop while he still had breath and enough room to engage and escape. Or there may have been other attackers ahead of him. Many possible reasons to stop, turn around and engage.

As for the other thing you mentioned, yes, I agree, it's not very nice to stab someone in the kidney when they're down. I won't argue your point that it may not have been necessary and certainly is problematic from a legal and moral standpoint. But consider that deadly force was already in use. The guys in the video were already slashing and stabbing kill points (neck, armpit, gut, etc).

I am curious about the other issues you had with the video. I thought someone would bring up the second thing, but I wonder what other issues you see?

Thanks for the input,

=wl
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Old 01-29-2003, 06:43 AM   #9
ross_l
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I only watched the video once and some of the points were so minor that they are hardly worth mentioning. Those were the two that I noticed the most.

I see your point about running away. Sometimes it is not an option. If you have a family to protect, for example.
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Old 01-30-2003, 05:07 PM   #10
bob_stra
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Re: "Mass Attack" video

Quote:
Willy Lee (willy_lee) wrote:
Thoughts?
Holy crap...23Mb clip...

1st thought - I'd love to train with these guys

2nd thought - why is it that in the 1st half of the clip, they all attack simultaneously, whereas in the second half, they attack in turns? I'd have been more impressed if they kept attacking en-masse *and then* been defeated by our anonymous hero.

3rd thought - irimi with a knife...so very, very sweet ;-)

4th thought - here's a good 'un in a "mass attack" scenario. ~2mb. But definately not aikido ;-)

http://www.bullshido.us/dl_goto.asp?id=6

Or failing that, goto http://www.bullshido.us/dl_showall.a...Misc%2E+Videos

and click on "4 on 1 Streetfight, Mike Valley"

Last edited by bob_stra : 01-30-2003 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 01-30-2003, 05:27 PM   #11
bob_stra
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Ian Dodkins wrote ;-

>Although the blatent advertising seems >interesting

Yes... they are quite good at that, no? ;-)

>I would consider that either of the two >people grappling on the video cover would be >dead

To wit: - don't judge a (book or video) by its cover? I think that tape is meant to be a "how not to grapple" tape. Haven't seen it myself. That abt right Paul?

I'll agree with you that newaza is not good thing to be doing in a multi situation. But -

(1) What if the other guys take it there?

(2) What if you trip?

(3) What if there is no other choice?

My responses -

(1) At least you'll know how to disengage (good luck learning how to escape from mount "on the fly"). Furthermore, with your superior grappling understanding, you should be able to prevent this from happening. Maybe.

(2) At least you have the slimmest of slim chances.

(3) See 2.

I've *sparred* (emphasis) with 2 on 1 newaza. The trick is - be very, very close or very, very mobile. This translates to tight vale tudo closed guard (so that the other guy acts as a body shield) or knee on belly (so you can get up quickly).

Also, this is a good read -

http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/bjj/fbmulti.html
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Old 01-31-2003, 12:46 PM   #12
paw
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Bob,
Quote:
I think that tape is meant to be a "how not to grapple" tape. Haven't seen it myself. That abt right Paul?
That's my understanding.

FWIW, I would agree with your analysis of ne waza with multiple attackers, both the reasons why and your responses.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 01-31-2003, 05:51 PM   #13
willy_lee
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Re: Re: "Mass Attack" video

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich (bob_stra) wrote:
2nd thought - why is it that in the 1st half of the clip, they all attack simultaneously, whereas in the second half, they attack in turns? I'd have been more impressed if they kept attacking en-masse *and then* been defeated by our anonymous hero.
I thought that at first too. But if you look closely, the simultaneous attack really doesn't exist in the first half of the clip either. What happens is that one still attacks first; the problem is that our hero is still dealing with that guy when the second one attacks. In at least two of the scenarios, "our hero" is beating the first guy or at least holding his own, then gets jumped on from the back. Also, if "our hero" looks like he's not dealing well with the first attacker, the other guys smell blood and really swarm him.

I had the same thought when I first saw aikido randori too. But if the attackers can't glom on to nage, and nage keeps moving to position for the next .... they look like they're attacking in turns, not so?
Quote:
4th thought - here's a good 'un in a "mass attack" scenario. ~2mb. But definately not aikido ;-)

... click on "4 on 1 Streetfight, Mike Valley"
Yep, I've seen that one before. It was interesting for me to see a "typical fight" and notice how intent and aggression turned a "multiple attacker" situation into a "multiple defender" situation. I think it's pretty clear that the four definitely don't have the same desire to fight as the one.

I think fear or at least caution is one of one's most important weapons in a multiple attacker situation.

=wl
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Old 02-04-2003, 08:13 AM   #14
George S. Ledyard
 
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Frankly, these videoes show a lack of understanding of proper Use of Force. In a couple of instances the defender has acheived the tactical advantage but stays or even returns ti finish an opponent who is already incapacitated. That's a murder charge right there.

That said, this is straight Aikido using a principle of ranbdori which we call "working the edges" which is what you do when the ukes are bunched together.

The absolute best stuff on mass attack is from the Systema folks at www.russianmartialart.com they have an amazing system for standing defense in crowd situations as well as the best tactical groud fighting system I have seen. I have done several systems through my Defensive Tactics training and theirs is easily the best one. Mr. Vasiliyev's films are worth every dollar. And the lovely thing about the systema is that since they have no set form to their tecyhniques everything they do can be adapted to your own Aikido.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
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Old 12-12-2005, 11:55 AM   #15
Forceanchors
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Re: "Mass Attack" video

Looking through I found this old thread.....the Atienza clan recently got together and shot some mass attack footage.

check them out when you can!

The first one is the newest one we just did
-shows how we classify 3 of the attacker scenarios
-Atienza Kali mass attack strategies (what we use against the attacker scenarios), done at demo speed
-some faster low light training with the Atienza Brothers fighting off the attacks.



The second is the classic clip we made in 2002

ENJOY!

http://www.atienzakali.com/pages/videogallery2.html
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Old 12-13-2005, 04:23 PM   #16
Faith Hansen
 
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Re: "Mass Attack" video

I would like to see them defending without a weapon.....I don't carry a weapon on the street.I frankly wasn't very impressed with the video. I've seen more fierce attacks in 4 person randori's I've seen at my dojo and others. The victim was staying to the edges, which was nice, but I felt like he was waiting alot for the attack rather than making the first move-shodo o seisu. George-I've seen some of the Systema stuff. Very interesting. Our Randori is more fluid and addaptive to the persons own Aikido like Systema is..in a way. I can't make a direct comparison, having seen little of it.
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Old 12-21-2005, 08:05 AM   #17
Forceanchors
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Re: "Mass Attack" video

Hi guys....glad we are getting some disscussion on the clip..just let me clear some things up.....

Let me outline the scenario that the mass attack exercise entailed.

The exercise was as follows:

-You are facing multiple opponents

-An attack is going to happen

-One of the mass has a knife and is going to use it at any opportunity he can

-The person with the knife doesn't show it

-You don't know which person in the group has the knife

-you can't run away

-DON'T GET KILLED

Those were the parameters for the mass attack scenario training session that day.-

Seth
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