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Old 12-09-2005, 03:33 PM   #1
doronin
Location: Canada
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Forward roll and knee

Recently I tried standing up from forward roll (as a first stage of learning rolls), I've got a serious knee pain. At the moment I was rising from sitting position all the body weight came on to the tucked leg in an unnatural for knee direction. I've got a strong feeling something goes wrong, but everyone seemed (to me) doing it this way...
What am I missing - there must be a better way to do it...
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Old 12-09-2005, 03:36 PM   #2
James Davis
 
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Re: Forward roll and knee

By tucked leg you mean front leg?

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Old 12-09-2005, 03:42 PM   #3
doronin
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Re: Forward roll and knee

At moment of rising from the ground it's a back leg, the one lying on the ground. You have to stand on its knee to get up.
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Old 12-09-2005, 03:51 PM   #4
James Davis
 
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Re: Forward roll and knee

Are you using your rear leg to push yourself up? Try using the front leg instead. I use my front leg both to push myself into the roll, and to get myself up to a standing position.

Try doing some of what I call "rocking chair rolls". From the knee-walking position, roll back to your shoulders and then forward again to the seated position. Look at the way your knee comes to the floor. Maybe it hurts because of unneeded impact?

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 12-10-2005, 03:33 AM   #5
bogglefreak20
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Re: Forward roll and knee

Be sure that both of your legs are REALLY "tucked in" just before you start getting up. That means both of the heels are as close to your body as possible. That way both of the legs help with lift-off (almost) simultaneously rather then just one of them. From my experience every centimeter counts. Second thing is extending ki forward and up (I don't know what school of Aikido you're involved in so I don't know if ki is at all an issue for you but for me it makes a huge difference) - when getting up be sure your mind is also trying to get you up, rather than thinking about something else. And finally, when getting up, don't use your shoulders but rather your centre (one-point).

If your knee hurts (i.e. if you injured yourself on one of the trainings), go easy on it for a while - you don't want to make it worse.

I hope any of this helps.

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Old 12-10-2005, 09:40 AM   #6
senshincenter
 
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Re: Forward roll and knee

It sounds like you are getting up going forward, in the direction you were thrown, traveling away from Nage and thus giving your back to Nage. If you instead try to keep zanshin with Nage/keep connection with Nage and try and turn, getting up facing the direction of Nage (from which you were thrown), you could get up using both legs (and both hands if you need to use them for whatever personal reason) and not just by using one leg and/or one leg and one instep - both of which are not good for the body (at the knees).

To get up facing the direction you were thrown from, all you have to do is open the rear knee once you are in your regular getting up position, then turn your waist so that you are again oriented toward Nage (i.e. facing nage with your gaze, hips, feet, etc.). At this point you are simply in a low squatting position. Keep your posture so you don't strain your lower back and can actually handle more intense residual forces from the throw - then press up using your quads and gluts (not your lower back). This is as sound as you can get up martially and physiologically. If your knee still hurts from this you are going to have to look to some other places outside of technique for comfort - most of which will pertain to increasing flexibility, increasing the muscle mass of the legs for more structural support of the knee, and/or dropping some weight so you can function within your knee's structural capacity.

While not instructional at all, here's some video demonstrating a more dynamic version of the roll I'm talking about. You can see the second uke (Sean) in the video getting up facing Nage - using both legs as in a low and open squat, etc.

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/kaitennage.html

in my opinion,
dmv

Last edited by senshincenter : 12-10-2005 at 09:45 AM.

David M. Valadez
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Old 12-10-2005, 11:45 AM   #7
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
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Re: Forward roll and knee

Onegaishimasu. I investigated mae kaiten this morning. Around the 70th mae kaiten I tried getting up without using my hands and noticed a particular pain in the knee. That gave me two things to think about. (1) don't think about weight distribution, rolling is a 'whole body' movement. (2) if you are rolling on your right side, the right hand is the 'omote' hand, and the left hand is the 'ura'. If you are using whole body movement you will use both hands and so as you come up from your roll, you should still have a forward rising movement using the 'ura' hand to push yourself up. I went on to do another 148 mae kaiten checking this out. I am glad you posted this problem, it was a lesson shared.
In gassho
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Old 12-10-2005, 01:42 PM   #8
sullivanw
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Re: Forward roll and knee

Hi all,

FWIW, I've had a bit of trouble with knee pain while getting up and during suwariwaza (who hasn't?). What has worked very well for me is to dissect my posture and make sure that everything is properly aligned; that I'm being fair to my body. A lot of the corretions that I have made have a lot to do with making sure that my knees are 'underneath' my body weight, and with whole body movement. Good luck!

-Will
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Old 12-10-2005, 09:19 PM   #9
roosvelt
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Re: Forward roll and knee

Quote:
Dmitry Doronin wrote:
Recently I tried standing up from forward roll (as a first stage of learning rolls), I've got a serious knee pain. At the moment I was rising from sitting position all the body weight came on to the tucked leg in an unnatural for knee direction. I've got a strong feeling something goes wrong, but everyone seemed (to me) doing it this way...
What am I missing - there must be a better way to do it...
Don't know what's your problem.

But a subtle difference a beginner fails to notice is the live toes. Forward rolls and backward rolls use live toes. I've seen a lot of dojo teaches dead toe rolls and think it's easy for beginners. I think it does more harm than good.

Shift your back leg to a position that you can use your live toes to push to self up.
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Old 12-12-2005, 08:29 AM   #10
doronin
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Re: Forward roll and knee

Thanks to all, I think I've got an idea to work on...

Now, few questions.

Miha, I'm not sure I understood you correctly, when I tried, it seemed to me easy to lose the balance if both my heels are too close to each other... Just to be clear, my right leg is in horisontal plane, tucked. My left leg is in vertical plane, bent.

David, am I wrong that the way you suggest leaves you somewhat vulnerable at the moments of turning and coming up?

Last edited by doronin : 12-12-2005 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 12-12-2005, 08:46 AM   #11
senshincenter
 
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Re: Forward roll and knee

(Assuming you mean, "vulnerable to a follow-up attack by Nage")

Well, anytime you are thrown you are vulnerable to a follow up attack - hence the tactic of throwing. So I would never say that you are not vulnerable. However, getting up in this way, in my opinion, is the most martially aware, the most physiologically sound, and the most conceptually consistent way of all the ways I have seen for recovering back to a neutral position after being thrown. In other words, that's as good as it gets. If you are vulnerable to a follow up attack this is your best chance of trying to deal with it. It is always going to be better to get up facing Nage than to get up not facing Nage - since, as far as vulnerability goes, the only attack that cannot be countered is the one you are not aware of.

In answer to your other question - on the feet being too close together - all you have to do to widen or deepen your stance is reach a bit more with your lead foot after it comes around again. That will put more distance between your feet and help address the needs of your particular physiology and/or the exact throwing energy you were facing. You control the distance between your feet bow how much or how little you reach with the front foot as you are coming out of the roll.

Last edited by senshincenter : 12-12-2005 at 08:50 AM.

David M. Valadez
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