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Old 12-06-2005, 10:31 PM   #26
xuzen
 
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Re: Just Run!!!!

<Boon imitating Mr Miyagi's speech>...Virtual Tough Guy wannabe need to practice in tough aikido school to allay their own insecurities. Try Yoshinkan-ryu or Tomiki-ryu, probably will help allay practitioner's insecurity <Mr Miyagi speech end>.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 12-06-2005, 10:58 PM   #27
Ulises Garcia
 
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Re: Just Run!!!!

Guys, cut Bratzo some slack. He's just defending the martial side of Aikido (Bratzo, correct me if I missed your point). I can understand his perspective. There was a thread not so long ago about "Dojo Storming" (sorry, no link). In said thread, some people considered that a friendly and honorable challenge made from another art in the Aikido dojo was out of the question, and some even considered calling the police (I'm saying these things from memory, so they could be a little different, but that's how I remember them). Of course, this has nothing to do with life or death situations, but speaks a lot about the view of "martiality" (or lack of) that some people have. After all, O-Sensei was quite martial, and he took on all comers, AFAIK. It seems to me that Bratzo is concerned (as many others, me included), that the view of Aikido without hard training (read "committed untelegraphed attacks" with randomness tossed into it, and plenty of sincere randori) could cause over time for Aikido to become so watered down, that it will lose all of its self defense value. I can only agree with that...

Peace everybody,
-U-

"He who dies with the most toys...still dies."
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Old 12-07-2005, 03:00 AM   #28
justin
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Re: Just Run!!!!

Guess I am lucky where we train we get the options, if you can run then run, if you cant run then this would disarm him, if you feel that wouldn't be enough this would put the guy in a world of pain long enough for you to make a honorable retreat.
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:19 AM   #29
CarlRylander
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Re: Just Run!!!!

O Sensei said:

'Never run from an oppponent'.

I have it on a list of his sayings.
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:24 AM   #30
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Just Run!!!!

[quote=Benjamin Edelen]I have been taught that the philosohpy of Aikido's brand of conflict resolution is to preserve the well-being of both sides.

Answer: this is usually what is taught, and WHEN POSSIBLE is the right choise, but why can't peploe accept that SOMETIME, UNDER SOME CIRCUMSTANCES could be necessary harm the attacker?

[quote=Benjamin Edelen] failing to avoid an avoidable physical confrontation make the resulting damage to you OR your enemy YOUR fault?

Answer: See, think before answering, I NEVER said when a confrontaion is avoidable fight anyway, I ALWAYS said SOMETIMES a confrontation is unavoidable.

[quote=Benjamin Edelen] You had the power to protect everyone, but through negligence your put everyone in danger.

Answer: if the self-defense aspect of Aikido is not properly trained, you won't be able to defend yoursef or anybody. Which is my point.

[quote=Benjamin Edelen] Why then do you not deserve to lose? Because you are always the hero in your own story? I am not convinced that I always deserve to win just because I think I am a good person. The other guy thinks he is a good person too.

Answer: AGAIN, I never said you deserve to win or loose, I sadid be prepared to defend yourself if necessary, you could win or loose, but trying.
You are the one who came with the idea of loosing (which implies the other wins) as a fair outcome for physically confrointing an aggression. That's stupid. Is that what Aikido has taught you? That those who can't avoid a confrontation deserve to loose?


Bratzo Barrena
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:38 AM   #31
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Just Run!!!!

[quote=James Kelly]And while we're on the subject of bullies. I got the $#!t beat out of me when I was a kid. Over and over again. When did it stop? Did it stop when I got bigger and stronger than them (which I did?)? No, because I was never aggressive enough to do anything with my size and strength. It stopped when I realized that I had a sense of humor and could make them laugh at the lunch table. That's when I gained just the little respect it takes to keep a bully from pounding you.

Answer: Ok, is a valid answer, make the laugh, so then for self-defense you need to train at a clown school, that's an option, but not everyone wants to be a clown

Had I studied aikido at the time and been able to calmly defend myself (which is not the likeliest scenario as it takes longer to get to that level in aikido than I had been alive) would I have been better off? Maybe, but then their wrath would have turned to another victim, and worse, I might have joined them just to be accepted. While they were laughing at my jokes they weren't beating anyone up.

Answer: being a clown is your wy to defend yourself and others, good for you, but taht doesn't mean Aikido is another option

Quote:
James Kelly wrote:
Again, the whole point of aikido as far as I can see it is to realize that the idea that the only two options are to fight or run (win or lose) is wrong.
Answer: Again, people why do you say things a I didn't wrote? I said that tihnking taht a confronatation is ALWAYS avoidable is stupid, and Aikido is a way of self-defense when you can avoid a fight. The one who sees it as win or loose is you, I see it as defend yourself physically when needed, if you 'win' good, if you 'loose' good, but at least defend yourself and don't be so stupid or naive thinking that a confrontation is ALWAYS avoidable
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Old 12-07-2005, 10:59 AM   #32
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Just Run!!!!

[quote=James Kelly]If you're not talking about your own life experiences, then whose are you talking about?

Answer: When I meant my life experience, I MEANT fighting. I wasn't talking about how much I have faught or not.
Obviously, hearing or reading those stupid anwers are part of my life experience.

[quote=James Kelly]The ‘Hippie-peace-and-love' people who are ‘very stupid or naive' in thinking this or that...? Why do you care?

answer: Yes I think is stupid or naive thnking that ALWAYS under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES you can avoid a physical confrontation. Just SOMETIMES you can't.
I care because this way of thinking undermines the self-defense aspect of Aikido. Of course, it doesn't keep me from sleeping, but I care.

[quote=James Kelly]And why so mad at them anyway? If their ideas about conflict are so stupid do you think telling them they're stupid is going to change their thinking?

Answer: I'm not mad at them. I jaust said the ideas where stupid, that's not being mad, it's true. I don't know if they're gonna change their minds or not, that's up to them, but when an idea is stupid I call it stupid.

[quote=James Kelly]All anyone has is their own life experience. It's the only criteria you can use to decide whether or not to train aikido, or how to handle a potentially violent situation. Your time on this forum would be much more constructive to this community, I think, if you stuck to your own observations about your aikido and your situations and didn't create a mythical group of people (who you think are stupid) and try to speak for them (and then tell them how wrong they are). A group which, by the way, no one on in this thread has been able to identify.

As I said before, reading or listening this stupid answer are part of my life experice.
You can decide decide to train aikido for whatever reason you want, for health, for fun, for enlightment, because you like a girl in the class, whatever, I didn't talk about why a specific person trains Aikido, I said assuming you can always avoid a conflict is stupid.
I never talked about MY aikido eother, I talk about Aikido in a general fashion. Did you read the thread?
I didn't created this mythical group, they are there.

Quote:
James Kelly wrote:
If you're reacting to a specific person, or a specific incident, or a specific passage, quote it and tear it apart. Otherwise this is a silly thread.
Answer: if you condider this is a silly thread, an opinion I respect, don't be silly answering

Bratzo Barrena
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Old 12-07-2005, 11:04 AM   #33
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Just Run!!!!

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
<Boon imitating Mr Miyagi's speech>...Virtual Tough Guy wannabe need to practice in tough aikido school to allay their own insecurities. Try Yoshinkan-ryu or Tomiki-ryu, probably will help allay practitioner's insecurity <Mr Miyagi speech end>.
Answer: If you're referering to me as a 'Tough Guy' you're wrong, I'm very nice.
You don't need 'tough aikido school' to defend yoursellf. Aikido in essence is self-defense.
The thread wasn't about me, was about Aikido, so stupid answer. Please think before answering, won't kill you, maybe you even like it.

Bratzo Barrena
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Old 12-07-2005, 11:10 AM   #34
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Just Run!!!!

Quote:
Justin Thomas wrote:
Guess I am lucky where we train we get the options, if you can run then run, if you cant run then this would disarm him, if you feel that wouldn't be enough this would put the guy in a world of pain long enough for you to make a honorable retreat.
Answer: I never said running wasn't an option, I even advise taht if this is one of you first options, you should train a sprinter and marathoner, to be an effective way of sel-defense. I said you can't ALWAYS run, so Aikido is there when you need it.

Bratzo Barrena
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Old 12-07-2005, 11:17 AM   #35
DaveS
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Re: Just Run!!!!

Quote:
Bratzo Barrena wrote:
Answer: See, think before answering, I NEVER said when a confrontaion is avoidable fight anyway, I ALWAYS said SOMETIMES a confrontation is unavoidable.
There was a really good article about this a while back.

The major point it started with is that if your main goal is to improve the safety of yourself and those that you love, a defensive driving course, cardio fitness, healthy eating and taking care crossing roads are all much better investments of your time and money than any martial art. It's just that more people do martial arts 'cos it's a far more exciting and romantic image to imagine yourself fighting off a bunch of blood-crazed crackheads in a dark alley than to imagine yourself not having a heart attack.

Noone says (as far as I've heard) that there are no situations in which you need to fight, just that since most of them can be avoided (by talking, running, or not doing anything stupid) the few that remain are insignificant compared to the myriad other risks presented by modern life.

I'm still a fan of martial effectiveness, but more because it gives my training focus than because I feel it's likely to save my life and limb...
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Old 12-07-2005, 11:25 AM   #36
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Just Run!!!!

I think is disrespectful to those who for any reason end up facing a physical confrontation to say that you CAN ALWAYS avoid them. Is kind of blaming on them too.
People get attack and harm everyday, and they don't deserve ot just because they couldn't avoid it, as someone stupidly stated in the thread (I think he/she said "deserve to loose').
People who think that way usually come to 'how probable is that in yourlifetime anyone is gonna face an aggression, and the con to 5%, 1%',or so, please tell that to all the raped and killed kids and teenagers we see dayly on the news (oh, right the deserved it, because they couldn't avoid it, so it's ok, right? That's STUPID and OFFENSIVE) or the abused woman, or many persons that are dayly attacked. Please tell them not to be concerned, the probabilities are very low. Well they are part of that low percentage, and can happen to anyone. I hope not, but can happen.
Now defending yourself guaranties your gonna 'win', NO. But at least you tried. Maybe can save your life, maybe it won't, but at least Aikido can give you tools to try to defen youself

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral, FL
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Old 12-07-2005, 02:27 PM   #37
Taliesin
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Re: Just Run!!!!

Interesting thread guys - But for me the whole point is that the physical element is the LAST resort. That doesn't mean it's not a resort, or we shouldn't train for it. After all there a very Aikido joke that says

Q:What's better than presence of mind during a train crash?

A: Absence of body
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Old 12-07-2005, 03:55 PM   #38
James Kelly
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Re: Just Run!!!!

Quote:
Bratzo Barrena wrote:
I think is disrespectful to those who for any reason end up facing a physical confrontation to say that you CAN ALWAYS avoid them. Is kind of blaming on them too.
People get attack and harm everyday, and they don't deserve ot just because they couldn't avoid it, as someone stupidly stated in the thread (I think he/she said "deserve to loose').
People who think that way usually come to 'how probable is that in yourlifetime anyone is gonna face an aggression, and the con to 5%, 1%',or so, please tell that to all the raped and killed kids and teenagers we see dayly on the news (oh, right the deserved it, because they couldn't avoid it, so it's ok, right? That's STUPID and OFFENSIVE) or the abused woman, or many persons that are dayly attacked. Please tell them not to be concerned, the probabilities are very low. Well they are part of that low percentage, and can happen to anyone. I hope not, but can happen.
Now defending yourself guaranties your gonna 'win', NO. But at least you tried. Maybe can save your life, maybe it won't, but at least Aikido can give you tools to try to defen youself
You're fighting with ghosts.
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Old 12-07-2005, 04:09 PM   #39
bratzo_barrena
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Re: Just Run!!!!

[quote=James Kelly]You're fighting with ghosts.

I'm not fighting with anybody.
That's part of reality. That it haven't happened to you or me, doesn't mean it does not happen to anybody.

Bratzo Barrena
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Old 12-07-2005, 09:07 PM   #40
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Just Run!!!!

With regards to the point about being non-verbal...it's a fine strategy, but it can be perceived as very aggressive I think.

I also have strong distaste for blaming the victim, which is where a lot of arguments about evasion tend to wind up.

Last edited by Lyle Bogin : 12-07-2005 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 12-08-2005, 10:04 AM   #41
Talon
 
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Re: Just Run!!!!

I agree with Bratzo on most of his points. I think for AIKIDO to be AIKIDO as O'sensei invisioned it, it has to be martially effective. If its not, its not AIKIDO. The fact that so many practitioners doubt its effectiveness in a real world violent situation is a very very scary thought. That means that the practitioners themselves are unsure of its effectiveness and therefore perhaps thay are not really practicing AIKIDO.
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Old 12-08-2005, 11:44 AM   #42
James Davis
 
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Re: Just Run!!!!

Quote:
James Davis, Jr. wrote:
Once it's obvious that there's going to be trouble, my sensei says to remain non-verbal (especially if there are witnesses). You won't waste brain power listening to them or trying to think of something to say, and you won't be responsible for provoking them.

Apologize, whether you're wrong or not. If they still want to fight after that, then eat their lunch.
Yeah, I suppose that being non-verbal could be construed as aggressive. I'm all about talking with someone to try and work something out; that's why I started my post with "Once it's obvious that there's going to be trouble,". If they press the issue and want to get physical, then I'm not worried about their feelings any more. I just want to get home alive!

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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