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Old 12-02-2005, 03:53 AM   #51
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Just my thoughts

This you must help me with please

Thanks
Bk
jhn20:29[/quote]

This is one where you should just read the actual book, the Spirit of Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba. It explains in some detail what he believes that Aikido is and does for the practitioner. Doshu's introductions to Best Aikido are also excellent explanations as well. I recommend them to you.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 12-02-2005, 08:42 AM   #52
crbateman
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
So when someone goes to a dojo to learn Aikido, they should make it their business to learn Aikido, not pick every little thing apart, especially when they're nowhere near completing that first step of reaching shodan.
A valid point, but it must also be said that when you go lookin' for Aikido, sometimes what you find is not exactly that (assuming you've enough experience to know the difference). If what you are being taught does not seem valid, you should probably walk, rather than seek corrections. Continuing in that place usually does not improve things, as your skeptical attitude will almost always affect those around you, which is not fair to them. Being critical of the instruction is both impolite and hopeless.
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Old 12-02-2005, 10:41 AM   #53
CNYMike
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Clark Bateman wrote:
A valid point, but it must also be said that when you go lookin' for Aikido, sometimes what you find is not exactly that (assuming you've enough experience to know the difference). If what you are being taught does not seem valid, you should probably walk .....
Oh, I'm not saying you shouldn't vote with your feet. That's one thing. But if you vote to stay -- and it doesn't matter what art -- you should make it your business to learn. There's a time when you can branch out, but that's not it. IMHO, anyway.
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Old 12-02-2005, 11:06 AM   #54
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote:
This you must help me with please

Thanks
Bk
jhn20:29
This is one where you should just read the actual book, the Spirit of Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba. It explains in some detail what he believes that Aikido is and does for the practitioner. Doshu's introductions to Best Aikido are also excellent explanations as well. I recommend them to you.[/quote]

Thanks Jorge I will pick one up this weekend. If you do not mind if I have questions regarding may I pm you? EIther way thanks for all your help.

Thanks
BK
jnh20:29
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Old 12-02-2005, 11:26 AM   #55
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

Hey Michael G and Clark B

Please correct me if I am wrong in my assumption. I believe you are judging me unfairly given that you do not know me, If I could change the title of my post to My Deep Question on My thoughts on aikido I would(maybe Jun you could help with that) Unfortunately I cannot. As I have said my Intent was neither to cause conflict, nor prove whether I am right or wrong this was not meant to be an argument (adding to convey intent) My interest to to understand to say that I am being critical and impolite or nit picking is an unfair judgment. If you wish to attack me then continue if you wish to help I accept graciously, the choice is yours to make.

I question the things I see so I can better understand why it is done this way. Leaning is a multifaceted thing, we all learn through sight, sound, touch, verbal instruction. I learn best through visual stimulus I can copy anything, that said you lose the intricate detail that my be to quick for the eye so you use verbal communication to convey the missing part. You ask why. Why do they attack differently? Why is that technique different? Why does uke do that when I do this? Icould go on and on. I ask not to be disrespectful but to understand so I can learn. You see in my mind I see aikido even through my body may not be able to do what I see but because I give life to it my minds eye so I will give life to it with my physical aikido one day. The mind can understand the concept it is the physical body that lags behind. So by understanding the intricate detail of how and why things are done for me is essential.

Thanks
BK
jhn20:29
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Old 12-02-2005, 01:05 PM   #56
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Brian Keesler wrote:
This is one where you should just read the actual book, the Spirit of Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba. It explains in some detail what he believes that Aikido is and does for the practitioner. Doshu's introductions to Best Aikido are also excellent explanations as well. I recommend them to you.
Thanks Jorge I will pick one up this weekend. If you do not mind if I have questions regarding may I pm you? EIther way thanks for all your help.

Thanks
BK
jnh20:29[/quote]


You're welcome to pm me anytime.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 12-02-2005, 01:53 PM   #57
ikkitosennomusha
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Re: Just my thoughts

"Martial Art". What does this mean? What does "Martial imply"? Give this some thought.

Is Karate a "Martial" art? Some may say yes. Ok, if this is your stand, what is karate "Martial" in relation to? Martial can be defined in various ways and taken in various context. For example, Martial can mean the following: military or warlike, superior, etc..

Karate is a classical art and in my opinion, karate is only "Martial/superior" to the common layman. I reason this because most other arts of "Martial Ways" fall into a category of being more complex and diverse such as kung fu, jujitsu, aiki jujisu, aikido, etc.

While some arts are a culmination of differnt methodologies becaue they characterize resemblence of arts predeveloped, they stand unique and individual becuase of their ideology and principles. This is where aikido comes in.

Like many of you, I had humble beginings in several differnt brands of karate such as shodokhan, american free style, etc. etc. and have even dabled into ninjitsu which after years of fascination, discovered it was a flop.

Im my opinion, Aikido is the most effective art thus truely deserving of the title "Martial". In my experience, it is vastly superior to the likes of karate, BJJ, judo, etc. It agrees with me mentally, physically, spiritually, and emotionally.

There is no such thing as bad aikido, there is only a possibility of a bad aikidoka. When one trains aikido wtih sincereity and shugyo, one becomes a single flesh with philosophies cultivated through hard work and meditation. Through this, a certain level of understanding occurs and you no longer see things the way you used to. You preconcieve uke's movement, things move in slow motion and you have a feeling of ample time to make any move you want, etc etc.

When you have this, you have the harmony between heaven and earth O-sensei talked about. Your mind and body is linked to the very environment in which you are standing and you can use the force of nature to champion the foe and become the victor no matter what life's situation is. The ability to conduct your life force and master your environment is in essence, "Martial".
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Old 12-03-2005, 08:25 AM   #58
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

[
Quote:
You're welcome to pm me anytime.
[/quote]

Much appreciated Jorge!

Thanks
BK
Jhn20:29
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Old 12-03-2005, 05:08 PM   #59
CNYMike
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Brian Keesler wrote:
..... I question the things I see so I can better understand why it is done this way ..... I ask not to be disrespectful but to understand so I can learn ....
Well, I didn't mean to say that you, personally, were being disrespectful, but that the understanding of respect in Asian countries affects the transmission of Asian martial arts from generation to generation. And it also reflects my Kali instructor's attiude, which is understandable as I've know him longer than Aikido sensei.

As for why Aikido is the way it is, well, as you've noticed by now, there are a lot of books on it; your sensei should also be a resource in that regard. Just showing up and practicing is also a good way to learn, too. But as to things like, "Why don't they question what they are taught? Why don't they look at other syllabi?" That's where the respect issue comes in. I'm all for cross-training, but I'm also all for keeping the arts separate -- in Kali class, do Kali; in Aikdio, do Aikido, and so forth. As I said, the whole point of going to Aikido class is -- or should be -- to learn what your Aikido sensei has to teach! Yeah, you can talk to him after class; I once told him about an Inodnesian version of Shiho-nage after he introduced it by saying it pops up in arts all over the world. But the whole point of my being there is for me to learn from him.

You also get more bang for your buck that way: I've found that when I put my own thinking on the back burner and focus on what I'm doing in that class, I get more out of it, and my techniques look better. Sometimes it's difficult, especially when some blatant similarites leap out at you. But it can be done.

Hope that clears things up, or at least takes it from murky to foggy.
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Old 12-03-2005, 05:36 PM   #60
crbateman
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Brian Keesler wrote:
Hey Michael G and Clark B

Please correct me if I am wrong in my assumption. I believe you are judging me unfairly given that you do not know me, If I could change the title of my post to My Deep Question on My thoughts on aikido I would(maybe Jun you could help with that) Unfortunately I cannot. As I have said my Intent was neither to cause conflict, nor prove whether I am right or wrong this was not meant to be an argument (adding to convey intent) My interest to to understand to say that I am being critical and impolite or nit picking is an unfair judgment. If you wish to attack me then continue if you wish to help I accept graciously, the choice is yours to make.
Brian, I think if you go back and re-read my posts with an objective POV, you will see that I have neither judged nor attacked anybody, but have spoken in generalities. IN GENERAL, it is impolite and usually fruitless to criticize one's instructor in an open forum such as this, as opposed to discussing the matter privately with that individual. This is where, IMHO, the distinction lies between "questioning" and "criticizing". When it's put it out there for all to see, people are going to respond with their opinions. If those opinions are perceived as personal attacks, then the problem is in the perception. The opinions themselves (mine, anyway) are intended to do GOOD, NOT HARM. Please take them that way. Be well.
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Old 12-04-2005, 09:46 AM   #61
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

Hey Craig and Mike, Fair enough, no harm like I said it is hard to convey meaning without expression But I am not nor have I been criticizing my sensei, he has absolutely nothing to do with this post at all, I apologize if I gave you that perception but that is just not the case. Like you said the problem is in perception so if you perceive this forum post to be about me criticizing my sensei or any sensei you are completely off base. If you were to read through all of my posts not once have I mentioned my system or sensei in a negative light or any system for that matter. All I am searching for is discussion and informantion. Also I have not been negative with any of my posts on the contrary I have said multiple times my intent was not to do that. However, if that were the case I would address those issues with him not with you or anyone else.

Thanks
BK
jhn20:29
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Old 12-04-2005, 12:43 PM   #62
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

I would have just edited my previous post but I am unable to for some reason, but I did not mention this but since it was brought up I also emaild my sensei the first post as well. Since it was irrelevent to the subject I did not mention it.

Thanks
Bk
jhn20:29
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Old 12-05-2005, 12:26 AM   #63
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Brian Keesler wrote:
I would have just edited my previous post but I am unable to for some reason ....
Aikiweb won't let you edit something after 15 minutes. I don't know why that is, but it is.
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Old 12-05-2005, 12:35 AM   #64
CNYMike
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Brian Keesler wrote:
..... If you were to read through all of my posts not once have I mentioned my system or sensei in a negative light or any system for that matter. All I am searching for is discussion and informantion. Also I have not been negative with any of my posts on the contrary I have said multiple times my intent was not to do that. However, if that were the case I would address those issues with him not with you or anyone else.

Thanks
BK
jhn20:29
I went back to the first post, Brian, and unfortunately, you had a couple of strong statements in it. A couple of excerpts:

Quote:
I believe that the generally accepted ideology of aikido is what sets it up for its own demise.
And:

Quote:
the art that I love suffers from its own idolized spirituality
Referring to Aikido being set of its "demise" and "suffering" doesn't come across as I want information. It comes across as saying flat out that the way things are done are wrong.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; I certainly have mine. But saying something provacative is going to have its effects, whether you wanted to cause them or not.
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Old 12-05-2005, 07:54 AM   #65
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
I went back to the first post, Brian, and unfortunately, you had a couple of strong statements in it. A couple of excerpts:



And:



Referring to Aikido being set of its "demise" and "suffering" doesn't come across as I want information. It comes across as saying flat out that the way things are done are wrong.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions; I certainly have mine. But saying something provacative is going to have its effects, whether you wanted to cause them or not.
I hear what you are saying I guess I just do not get as easily as offended as others. There I just my thoughts I did not say they were right or wrong a perception if you will. Even when I felt I was being flammed I was not upset about it truth be told. Why is it that people are so quick to be offended? Why cant we have open dialogue with hate or anger? For example when people attack me for being christian I dont get mad or upset thats their choice, the same goes for what we are talking about now. if your offended by what I said I truely appologize. All i ask is maybe we should all be more understanding and less quick to jump to preconcieved notions without first understanding. The benefit of the doubt.

Thanks BK
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Old 12-05-2005, 08:32 AM   #66
Ben Joiner
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Re: Just my thoughts

Hi Bryan,

I am also 3rd Kyu and like yourself have found myself trying hard not to ask too many of the kind of questions you have posed above. I too trained in another art previously - Kickboxing - where the majority of the learning, after the basics, took place during the sparring. I think there are a few of us out there who reach the point in our aikido where we begin to feel that we aren't quite the clunky robots that we may have been when first starting I know I was. Maybe the point at which, when we were studying other arts, things began to' liven up' and questions about effectiveness began to be answered 'on the mat' . Naturally our inclination is to bring this model to our Aikido practise.

As I'm coming to understand it, the problem with doing this is that we are simply not ready to progress to the next stage yet. Maybe stages is not the correct term. It seems to me that you never stop learning the basics in Aikido. I, as you seem to, have difficulty taking things on board which don't seem to make sense/ fit into the model I have so far constructed of what Aikido is to me. It can be frustrating when so many of my questions, which seem very valid to me, are met with slightly exasperated polite explanation from those to whom it appears the answers are glaringly obvious.

I do remember feeling like this before however, when I was growing up. I think the best advice I've had along these lines is also the most frustrating : Relax, enjoy the training don't be afraid to ask question but be prepared to accept the answers or find somewhere else to train where you prefer the answers. Just to emphasise my point, I feel like I'm right there with you on all the points you have raised in this thread. I'm just gonna try real hard to put them to one side until I've reached shodan when perhaps I will have answered at least some of them already.

Ben
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Old 12-05-2005, 03:03 PM   #67
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Ben Joiner wrote:
Hi Bryan,

I am also 3rd Kyu and like yourself have found myself trying hard not to ask too many of the kind of questions you have posed above. I too trained in another art previously - Kickboxing - where the majority of the learning, after the basics, took place during the sparring. I think there are a few of us out there who reach the point in our aikido where we begin to feel that we aren't quite the clunky robots that we may have been when first starting I know I was. Maybe the point at which, when we were studying other arts, things began to' liven up' and questions about effectiveness began to be answered 'on the mat' . Naturally our inclination is to bring this model to our Aikido practise.

As I'm coming to understand it, the problem with doing this is that we are simply not ready to progress to the next stage yet. Maybe stages is not the correct term. It seems to me that you never stop learning the basics in Aikido. I, as you seem to, have difficulty taking things on board which don't seem to make sense/ fit into the model I have so far constructed of what Aikido is to me. It can be frustrating when so many of my questions, which seem very valid to me, are met with slightly exasperated polite explanation from those to whom it appears the answers are glaringly obvious.

I do remember feeling like this before however, when I was growing up. I think the best advice I've had along these lines is also the most frustrating : Relax, enjoy the training don't be afraid to ask question but be prepared to accept the answers or find somewhere else to train where you prefer the answers. Just to emphasise my point, I feel like I'm right there with you on all the points you have raised in this thread. I'm just gonna try real hard to put them to one side until I've reached shodan when perhaps I will have answered at least some of them already.

Ben
Ben Thanks for the post it is VERY much appreciated. In reading some and thinking a great deal on many of the posts I agree that most of this is applicable later on (shodan etc) and like you the best thing is to just keep training, . I look a competition differently now, I also see there is puropose for all things we just may not see it yet but it is there.

Thanks
BK
jhn20:29

Last edited by 3girls : 12-05-2005 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 12-05-2005, 03:16 PM   #68
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

Jorge will probably appreciate this since he is an educator if i remember correctly but I was always the kid in the back of the class that never asked a question...... ever Irony....funny
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Old 12-06-2005, 12:47 AM   #69
CNYMike
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Brian Keesler wrote:
....Why is it that people are so quick to be offended? ....
I think it is more important to recognize that it can happen instead of wondering at why it does, and learn to be careful about what you say and how you say it.

Quote:
..... if your offended by what I said I truely appologize ....
Thanks, but I wasn't offended. I've been doing karate in particular and martial arts in general for twenty years now (where has the time gone?), and your description of sparring didn't square with how I was taught it, but the reason for that is how you were taught it. But I wasn't offended. When someone spouts off on an area I know something about, I speak up.
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