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Old 10-31-2005, 10:09 AM   #26
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

Quote:
Ian Upstone wrote:
As far as I know (I may be wrong!), Waseda university (where Tomiki sensei was on the staff) would only allow an aikido group to be created there on the proviso that an element of competition would be introduced...
FWIW, as Peter (Goldsbury) mentioned there are, and have been, other Aikido groups at Waseda. As I understand it, the competition requirement only applied to courses taught as part of the university sports curriculum.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-31-2005, 10:18 AM   #27
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
I think its safe to say that in the Shodokan view the presence or absence of competition does not define Aikido but rather the techniques learnt from Ueshiba M.. Certainly Tomiki K. was accomodated in the Aikikai fold while his teacher lived and by accounts quite shocked by the events in the early 70s.
Well, these things build gradually, and not all that much happened while Morihei was alive - and none while he was still active. Tomiki didn't begin experimenting with competitive practice until after 1958, and his first real dojo didn't exist until 1967. The first full competition didn't even occur until 1970 - the year after Morihei Ueshiba's death, so it's not that surprising to me that things didn't come to a head until then.

A typical Japanese response to an uncomfortable situation is to ignore it and pretend that it doesn't exist - of course, even that has limits.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-31-2005, 12:02 PM   #28
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

Interesting thread. I am sorry to see inflammatory comments and offenses to dampen the mood.

I have not practied Shotokan or any Tomiki variation, but I'd had the pleasure of working with several individuals that did/do. I think that as an outsider, I have two comments:
1. The Tomiki folks I've worked with said Tomiki style can be intimidating because of the element of competition in training. I use "competition" in the sense of a paired match with a victor. In some styles of aikido, the concept of "competition" is avoided and even shunned - it's no wonder than the Tomiki folks are constantly defending misconceptions.
2. The Tomiki folks I've worked with had an easy time applying technique even when I was non-compliant. Some styles of aikido almost depend on cooperation between partners to successfully apply technique. This is another situation that can be intimidating for a student.

These two observations don't answer the original question and that answer should be left to a focus group of students that have experience in both styles. Obviously, the best way to find out if you like Tomiki style aikido is to try a dojo for a while...
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Old 10-31-2005, 07:11 PM   #29
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
FWIW, as Peter (Goldsbury) mentioned there are, and have been, other Aikido groups at Waseda. As I understand it, the competition requirement only applied to courses taught as part of the university sports curriculum.
At the time there were no Aikido clubs at any university.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-31-2005, 10:15 PM   #30
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
At the time there were no Aikido clubs at any university.
Hiroshima University is now in its 35th generation of members. So it was established in 1970. However, its foundation was comparatively late and other university clubs nearer Tokyo were established earlier. So it is likely, though I do not have access to a calendar and so cannot be sure, that there were university clubs in existence in the later years of the Founder's life. I think the date of the founding of the Aikikai's Gakusei Aikido Renmei is recorded in the back of either Kisshomaru's biography of the Founder or of his own autobiography. My impression is that aikido was actively encouraged in Japan's universities as a means of resurrecting the art after the war.

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Old 10-31-2005, 10:25 PM   #31
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

Peter - I meant at the time Waseda made the conditions to Tomiki. I am however, also under the impression that getting Aikido into the universities was a priority for the Aikikai. Tomiki came through in that regard.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-31-2005, 10:44 PM   #32
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
At the time there were no Aikido clubs at any university.
The Asia University Aikido club (the first Aikikai university Aikido club) was started in 1954.

Best,

Chris

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Old 10-31-2005, 10:56 PM   #33
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

Thanks Chris always a pleasure.

I guess your original conjecture about curriculum was correct. Were there any other clubs or circles formed before Waseda.

The official formation of that club was 1958 - prior to that Aikido was taught to interested members of the Judo club. Tomiki started teaching at Waseda from 1954.

Last edited by PeterR : 10-31-2005 at 11:01 PM.

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Old 10-31-2005, 11:30 PM   #34
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

With regards to aikido being practiced at Waseda, I had heard stories from people (that seemed credible) years ago that there was a difference between a university student activity "club" practicing aikido and a "for credit" course of training that they felt needed a means to "test" and quantify skill development. In order to begin such a course, Tomiki began the shiai to meet the qualifications made necessary by Waseda administrators.

I also heard that Tomiki had visions of many young people being attracted to the shiai activity and hoped that a large number of them would stay around after shiai lost it's appeal and practice just for the sake of the practice.

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Chuck Clark
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Old 11-01-2005, 12:02 AM   #35
Chris Li
 
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Thanks Chris always a pleasure.

I guess your original conjecture about curriculum was correct. Were there any other clubs or circles formed before Waseda.

The official formation of that club was 1958 - prior to that Aikido was taught to interested members of the Judo club. Tomiki started teaching at Waseda from 1954.
There were quite a few university Aikido clubs formed in the Tokyo area around 1955 (Kisshomaru Ueshiba mentions Tokyo, Keio and Kokugakuin University Aikido clubs forming around that time in "Aikido Ichiro", also I believe that Meiji University formed their club in 1957).

Apparently, Hiroshi Tada claims to have been appointed as the shihan for the Gakushuin University, Keio University, and Waseda University Aikido clubs in 1957 (see http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~yp7h-td/hiroshi.html). However, I'm not sure how accurate that was, since Kisshomaru says in "Aikido Ichiro" that the Aikikai club at Waseda was formed shortly after Tomiki's club in 1958 by a group of students who wanted to stay with the Aikikai hombu methods of training.

In any case, there was plenty of Aikido activity at universities prior to 1958. I think that the main thing at Waseda was getting it recognized as an official part of the sports curriculum.

Best,

Chris

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Old 11-01-2005, 12:03 AM   #36
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

Hi Chuck;

In one of his articles he makes that statement specifically however I can not find it right now. The closest I can come to is his On Jujutsu and its Modernization which also is a great article concerning the original question. Of course I know you are familiar with it but for those that are not
http://judoinfo.com/tomiki2.htm

It's a long article and well worth a read but I will quote just two parts. One the closest to statement we are discussing

Quote:
It is the case, though, that the method of training used in aikido today is not only based upon the practices of long ago, but is indeed just about unchanged from what was done back then. If we consider the matter from the standpoint of an up-to-date education in budo, however, a system of randori practice ought to be added and should be based upon a method of training that incorporates both kata and randori. When one is young it is important for one's budo training to pass through rigorous bodily and spiritual ordeals in randori and, further, tournaments. And as for the vast array of techniques that cannot be incorporated into randori training, the profound martial arts principles embodied in those techniques can be--must be--mastered thoroughly through the practice of kata. In this way, one may develop one's body to the wonderful state known as mugamae or shizentai, and thence through further exertions reach the ascetic practice of mushin. This is "the Way" for the practitioner of austerities.
and two because I want to

Quote:
For example, within kenjutsu in the middle of the Edo era, schools such as kempo-kaho were ridiculed. The ridicule was because these schools were revealed to have kata-only practises that made it easy to develop weak points. It is said that the rigor of bujutsu training was forgotten, that the training sank into easy-going ways, that real power was not sought, and that pretentious bombastic activity increased. In short, history reports that the sword kata of budo degenerated into the sword kata of the stage.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-01-2005, 12:14 AM   #37
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote:
In any case, there was plenty of Aikido activity at universities prior to 1958. I think that the main thing at Waseda was getting it recognized as an official part of the sports curriculum.
Nicely clarifying a few things. It's pretty clear I erred and transposed the first of one thing onto the first of another. My bad, my lesson.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=96 is an interview with Shizuo Imaizumi part of which says

Quote:
I believe you were one of the founders of the Waseda University Aikido Club. Would you please describe how it was that the club was established?

There were several Waseda students who were practicing aikido at Hombu Dojo. In the spring of 1960, Akira Kuwamori, Tsuyoshi Takahashi, Tadaharu Wakabayashi, Kin'ichi Iwasaki and I decided to set up the Waseda University Aikido Dokokai on behalf of the Aikikai separate from the Tomiki-style group at Waseda. We consulted with Kisshomaru Ueshiba Sensei who was a Waseda graduate. Then we asked Hiroshi Tada Sensei, another Waseda graduate, to become our regular instructor. At that time, the Keio University Aikido Association already existed under the guidance of Koichi Tohei Sensei who graduated from that university.

a bit earlier in the text he writes

Quote:
When did you start aikido training?

In April 1957, I enrolled in Waseda University where I majored in commercial science. As a freshman I took judo as a required subject for physical education. There were several judo instructors at Waseda University. My instructor's name was Yamamoto Sensei. When I became a junior in April 1959, I took another required subject as physical education. I chose judo taiso (exercises) taught by Kenji Tomiki Sensei. I bought his textbook with the same title Judo Taiso.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-02-2005, 02:22 PM   #38
Saji Jamakin
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

I think we should exercise caution and not be too dogmatic about any martial art.
I have great respect for Ueshiba Sensei for founding Aikido. I also have great respect for Sensei Kenji Tomiki.
After all he was an instructor at a Japanese University.

But they are not deities that we should give our unquestioning allegience to. Every martial art has changed and thus evolved. So let Aikido evolve.

So to address your original question:

Quote:
Matthew Zelic wrote:
was just wondering what are everyones views on the tomiki style aikido, what are the pros and cons, how does it differ from other styles etc.
Although I've only actually studied Tomiki (Shodokan) Aikido I've seen other styles in demos and classes.

So from my prospective here are the pros and cons:

PROS:
Easy to Learn:
We have 17 basic techniques in the form of stylized katas and
3 movement exercises: Un Soku, Tando Kundo, and Tai Sabaki which we drill.

Attacks vary in intensity:
Stylize (predictable) attacks vary from slow with little resistance to
fast and deliberate with moderate resistance.

Early exposure to Randori:
At least in my dojo we try to expose a beginner to a sort of free-style attack with tantos early.

Defense against Multiple Attackers:
Alternating Free style attacks are done with a tanto by 2 ukes with moderate intensity.
Very intense. Very tiring. Very humbling.

Shiai: Matches
Competitive match with referees, points and timers. This really tests the level of your technique because your opponent knows every technique you know. Therefore your technique is refined through this healthy competition.
Also; Very intense. Very tiring. Very humbling.

Speed and conditioning drills (Kakari-geiko):
Tests your technique by applying it to a non-resistive UKE as fast as you can within 30secs to 1 min. This conditions uke because of the sequence of falls and attacks he must quickly perform.

Ura Waza, Go-no-sen, Counter Techniques:
Also maybe called soft-soft. I counter you counter and so on.

The seventeen techniques are extensible:
I am often confused on this forum when others ask "Can Aikido be used in a real fight?" To which my response is Huh…of course! Or "how do you get out of X hold?"
Although they are not done exactly like the kata I believe any Tomiki practitioner will be able to call out the name of the technique if they see it performed in response to a self-defense situation.

In my dojo we practice the 17 basic techniques in self defense situtations not just katas. It's also part of our test for promotions. I don't know if this is true in other Tomiki dojos but I suspect it is. Therefore, I am confident that I can extend the 17 basic techniques to different types of attacks. For example I can use 6 of the 17 techniques to counter a double rist grab (where one person has two hands on your rist). Here's some other examples of attacks and an application of one some of the 17 techniques:
Wild swing -- Irimi Nage, Hiki-otoshi
Double collar grab and push -- Kote Gaeshi, OshiTaoshi
Single collar grab with punch coming -- Block (if you need too) Waki Gatamae, Kote Gaeshi, Mae Otoshi ShomeAte(Combo).
Rear Bear Hug -- Sink pop elbows up grab a hand and perform Tenkai Kote Hineri
Rear Choke -- Sink and pull choke are down. Step behind and slip out of choke perform WakiGatamae
Rear Hair grab -- Turn and peel hand off to Kote Gaeshi, Kote Hineri, OshiTaoshi
I could go on.
Tomiki practitioners help me out.

I had always thought that this type of extensibility is taught in all styles of Aikido. Correct me if I am wrong.

Cons:
Because of the speed of the attacks sometimes the odds of an injury is higher.

The Tomiki style tends to have a student muscle a technique thus making it less effective against someone stronger and heavier. This is not the correct way but its something the practitioner needs to be aware of.

That's all can think of right now.

Last edited by Saji Jamakin : 11-02-2005 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 11-06-2005, 09:08 PM   #39
Patrick
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

OK, so this might be old hat to so some people, but I just saw a video clip of the current Doshu and he did a shomen ate. I was amazed I though only people that did tomiki aikido and its variations did that.

Kendo is like star wars and everyone gets to be Darth Vader.
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Old 11-06-2005, 09:31 PM   #40
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

The first technique of the first Aikikai lesson I attended in Japan was shomen-ate. Never saw it done once in Aikikai in the UK so was nicely surprised.

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Old 11-06-2005, 10:10 PM   #41
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

Over the years I have read whatever has been available about Tomiki Aikido. I believe that Tomiki Kenji simply tried to fit Aikido into the modern sporting paradigm, much as Kano Jigoro did with Judo. As educators, both men saw sport as being for the good of all and both were willing to throw away the old to accept the new. Such was not unique thinking, rather it was the trend after 1868 and explains why Japan modernised so quickly, to the extent of being able to defeat Russia at naval warfare in 1905. Kano tried to preserve what he saw being lost and sent his students out here and there to study old Ryu. But, not much has been preserved in modern Judo -- a few katas that few people are interested in these days. Tomiki tried harder and his school contains six Koryu katas from 16 -- 50 techniques each. They are not real koryu, of course, but they nevertheless contain a lot of interesting stuff you will rarely see in Aikikai -- and more importantly, people still practise them.

If people have their reservations about Aikido it is almost always in terms of its effectiveness. Sure, Ueshiba Morihei was something special, but who has followed him? Tomiki Aikido has various means of practice: Hand and foot movement exercises, kata, randori (free fighting), kagari-geiko (jyu-waza), tanto randori, ninin dori -- all to be tested in competition. Competition usually means shiai, set matches, but I believe that what Tomiki was really interested in was creating a scenario for developing technique. I'll say that again -- creating a scenario for developing technique. And, as such, that could be a direct reflection of what he perceived to be a weakness in Aikido, as indeed many do today. In creating his shiai scenario, competition was the natural result, as in Judo. So, while students these days are busy preparing for competition, Tomiki, as an educator, was simply aiming to find the means to improve (modernise) old methods to make them more effective -- to make Aikido work and to make it teachable large scale. However, the danger is if competition becomes the ultimate goal. In such a case, what is or is not allowed becomes defined by rules, then the rules define the training, then you start to loose out. To keep people interested in ‘the old stuff' he created a set of katas and named them ‘old stuff' (koryu) and created kata competition. Judo has failed to do this and people have lost ‘interest' in its katas.

So, while the students are naturally interested in winning, if they compete (some don't), Tomiki the man -- as an educator -- created the means to test and improve on technique, the modern method. He was also interested in creating better men, as was Kano, which some argue competition hinders, and others say it helps.

As a simple comparison one only need ask questions: Would boxing (Western) have developed to the extent it has today had it remained secretly hidden in some family? Would it have developed without competition? Would runners run as fast today if they only trained by themselves and had no races? Has wrestling ever existed independent of competition?

So for any Aikikai student, like myself, we have to ask: What do I know, how good is it, how can I make it better, and how do I know ‘what' is better (or worse)? Who do I ask and how can I trust them?

Last edited by Rupert Atkinson : 11-06-2005 at 10:13 PM.

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Old 11-06-2005, 10:27 PM   #42
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

Hi Rupert;

Nice post but I will add that winning competitions is not the driving force among the bulk of the students at least those I have contact with. Some of the younger (ie University) students are really into doing well in shiai and Enbu competition when they occur but even here their primary goal seems to be getting good at Aikido.

I do realize that some groups (no names) in some countries have strayed from the ideal and just don't get what Tomiki was on about but those who maintain ties close to the source are doing a pretty good job.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-12-2005, 01:34 AM   #43
Matthew White
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

There's a lot of discussion of competition as being the big difference (and yes it is one difference), but I've heard of Tomiki referred to as "the last Japanese innovator". Where as Ueshiba was undoubtedly a fantastic martial artist, he was not an educator (in the western sense) and it was his gifted students who could learn intuitively who excelled and became the "big names" we know and love today. Tomiki was a modern educator. He took the theories and principles behind western epistemology and educational paradigms and applied them to aikido. He (along with Miyaki and some others) created a more "compact" syllabus for teaching principle-to-technique (as opposed to the more technique-to-principle style of training in many Japanese martial arts, including aikido). Whether one works better than they other (IMHO) is largely based on the what kind of Learner the student is (the quality of the teacher is also a large factor).

Another major difference is how very linear Tomiki style is. His system focuses initially on irimi movements. The entire Junana Hon Kata, which is the first and perhaps "most fundamental" (if I may make that qualification) of the syllabus, is application of Irimi (no or almost no turning involved).

Some might also claim that Tomiki is more "combative" or is a "harder" style (depending on who you talk to). Much of his stuff comes from the pre-war aikibudo (as opposed to aikido), and his first licensing that he received from Ueshiba (I believe) was listed as Daito-ryu (thus the koryu no kata series in Tomiki style).
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Old 11-15-2005, 09:57 PM   #44
Dave Himrich
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Re: Tomiki Aikido

I just thought I would jump in this thread to mention that I have been practicing for the past two years within a Tomiki-derived organization, Fugakukai. This is the organization founded by Karl Geis sensei, who was a student of Tomiki in judo and aikido. Some years ago, in consultation with Tomiki, Geis dropped competitive tanto randori as a training method. My understanding is that Geis sensei determined that other methods would be more appropriate for his students, as they were generally older and tended to practice aikido for longer periods of time than Japanese university students.

We have retained the Tomiki kata structure, although I understand also that Geis sensei has modified the techniques over the years, as very senior aikido instructors are wont to do. We also use a hand randori training method that is not competitive. I think I am one of the few Fugakukai members in this area who does not do both aikido and judo. Many of the judo players do compete, and their practice methods are more competition-oriented than the aikido practices.

I started my serious Aikido career with the AAA in Illinois, which is Aikikai affiliated, but with significant Ki Society influence owing to their founder, the late Fumio Toyoda sensei. If I were to compare the two styles, I would say that the Fugakukai training is more focused on balance breaking, and is more explicitly organized with self-defense applications in mind. My sense is that the teaching methods differ more than the applied techniques.

- Dave Himrich
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