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Old 11-20-2004, 02:17 PM   #26
Chuck.Gordon
Location: Frederick, MD
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote:
All but one Lieutenant, that we had on our tank, was a total numb skull.
What? You mean there are lieutenants who AREN'T idiots???

That's illegal ain't it?

(Waves at Kevin)

Lieutenents are a lot like shodans ...

In SO many ways.

Chuck

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Old 11-23-2004, 05:00 AM   #27
rachel
Dojo: Aikikai Foundation Hombu Dojo, Aikido of Hilo
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
Lieutenents are a lot like shodans ...

In SO many ways.
What on earth does that mean?
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Old 11-23-2004, 05:56 AM   #28
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Quote:
Rachel Klein wrote:
What on earth does that mean?
Both tend to have inflated ideas of their own knowledge and importance ...

Chuck

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Old 11-23-2004, 10:21 AM   #29
rachel
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
Both tend to have inflated ideas of their own knowledge and importance ...

Chuck
I'm glad you said 'tend to.' I'm am shodan and I, for one, I know that there is a lot that I still need to learn.
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Old 11-23-2004, 10:23 AM   #30
Chuck.Gordon
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Quote:
Rachel Klein wrote:
I'm glad you said 'tend to.' I'm am shodan and I, for one, I know that there is a lot that I still need to learn.
Congratulations (now get back to training)!

Seriously, there are some good LTs in the world, too ... just too damn few of them.



Chuck

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Old 11-23-2004, 10:30 AM   #31
rachel
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Quote:
Chuck Gordon wrote:
... just too damn few of them.



Chuck
I hear that!
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Old 10-15-2005, 09:11 PM   #32
flashdragoon
 
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

just to add another perspective and jsut so I dont get slammed by the senior students myself lemme make this very clear I jsut started Aikido 3 weeks ago, but I think if you can dominate a senior student that does not neccissarily mean your better, O Sensei taught that there is no opponent, we are only fighting ourselves, so in essence you could possibly be very intune with this principle?
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Old 10-15-2005, 11:36 PM   #33
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Quote:
Jon Truho wrote:
Should you be able to dominate a senior student (brown or black belt) in freestyle practice? And if you can is their rank valid? I would expect that a certain level of combat effectiveness should be required.
Depends on a number of factors I think. My shortest response is, "no." However, I think it depends on what the senior student is trying to do. I know in the past I have purposefully limited my available responses and I have operated on a "half-intention" mode where i was slowing down my reaction time to give uke/nage a sense of how to apply a technique or to give more opportunity to think about how to counter mine.
In one situation we had a "new" student ask about how to respond to a grab from behind around the waist. The instructor invited the student to help him demonstrate it. It took a bit of time for the instructor to figure it out, and in this sense the student dominated him. However, the instructor was thinking while this happened. After a second or two I saw him shut off his mind and feel his way through the situation and quickly the student was pinned to the ground where he could have been struck several times in a number of places.
I think everyone has some aspect of their training which needs improvement and sometimes, even though one person may be vastly superior in general ability, the generally weaker student might be equal, or slightly better in the specific area one moment may pertain to. Then again, we all have brain-farts!
However, generally speaking, if someone is able to dominate another on a regular basis, they by definition have higher ability, generally speaking. Rank, in and of itself, means very little. I would go on to say that the difference between, say, a 5th kyu and a 4th kyu is relatively small and may at times be meaningless, but that the difference between 1st dan and 5th kyu, for example, should be quite pronounced and always meaningfull. If a sandan karateka trains in aikido and is the kohai of a nikyu aikidoka, this is a valid relationship in that the sempai will (likely) understand how to articulate aikido better. When the two students interact outisde the aikido sphere, the sempai-kohai relationship changes accordingly.
Sorry for my lack of concise rhetoric. Hope my two cents made sense.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-16-2005, 12:21 AM   #34
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Quote:
Seriously, why is it important. Doing budo ain't about combat effectiveness.No, really. Budo is about living.
Does living sometimes include combat? I'd say, using your definition of Budo, that Budo would have to include combat effectiveness of some sort, but that's not the issue at hand...is it? Isn't the question about rank and general ability within the scope of Aikido?

Quote:
You wanna learn combat effective stuff? Come visit and I'll introduce you to the folks I work with ... infantry grunts, cannon cockers, armor dogs, SpecOps guys ... you know, The folks who go looking for bullets for a living.
I'd love to train with specialists such as these (except for the cannon cockers and armor dogs since I doubt I'll ever use devices of that variety in any way shape or form). I was able to train briefly with an Army Ranger and it was illuminating. I can only imagine if it had been for a longer period of time I would have learned much more.

Quote:
Combat effective. What a joke.
Seems to me this guy was asking about an on-the-mat situation pertaining to rank, not about "combat effectiveness," so how does your remark relate to the actual situation described?

Quote:
Get a life, son. No, really. And go do something useful with it
.
Good advice for all of us. Maybe to you this question seems trite, and i commend you for your apparently superior grasp of this, but some of us find this question usefull to think about and still have to figure that out.
Take care, pops,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 10-16-2005 at 12:23 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 10-16-2005, 12:43 AM   #35
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

There's an old guy that I train with fairly often - former judoka, not a single good joint left in his body. He's stiff as a board, and has terrible balance; I work on flow when I take ukemi for him, rather than trying to resist, and when he throws me I fling myself as far as I can go because I don't want him to fall on me (it has happened before, to me and to several other people). Furthermore, I often don't complete my techniques, or fully take his balance and stretch him out, because I'm afraid of hurting him. He often throws in extra punches to show me that I'm open. He also 'helps' me by telling me how to do technique sometimes. He's a 6th kyu, I'm a full-of-my-new-rank shodan.

Now, between the openings that I show, and the easy, dramatic ukemi I take, who's dominating whom?
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Old 10-16-2005, 05:37 AM   #36
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Always studying, never fighting. Study as though everything is a reflection of yourself. In gassho
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Old 10-16-2005, 11:04 AM   #37
gstevens
 
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

We have had some new students in our dojo that would probably say that they are more effective and can take most of their sempies. I find it a kind of ironic situation.....For instance:

I worked with one of these students, (usually they are adolescent males).

This one in particular was always trying to point out my "openings" as he saw them. Never once did he concentrate on his Ukemi. This got kind of humorous. His techniques involved no feet movement when he was nage, and very little when Uke. I would work patiently on getting to the point just before I took his balance. Had I continued, I know he would have landed on his head, face, or some other sensitive part.

Every time that I would allow him the time he needed to collect himself and get ready to fall without injury, he would make an ineffective punch. (How good are you at punching through your outstretched underarm in Ikkyo)? This went on for a while eventually he commented that I needed to close up my openings, that he felt my technique was leaving me in danger.

I stifled three reactions which simultaneously arose in me. One was to belly laugh till I fell over. Another was to flow him completely to the mat on the next round without stopping so he could collect himself. The third was to show him what an opening really looked like next time he was Nage.

Pre aikido days I would have probably done all three. Instead I just smiled, and kept training. When he would throw out a punch, I would take his balance just enough so he thought about the mat instead of me. This was a really really hard exercise for me, getting the balance just right FOR HIM. However it was wonderful, I worked on connection, on knowing from his muscle tension how comfortable he felt.

At the end of the day I am sure that he felt he "HAD ME" that he could "Take Me", and that I was not as big and mean a dog as I looked.

How was my Aikido that day on the mat. Probably some of the best that I have done so far.

Guy
:-)
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Old 10-17-2005, 08:42 AM   #38
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Excellent post Guy. Sometimes it's *really* hard to do good aikido...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-17-2005, 11:44 AM   #39
djalley
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Quote:
Jon Truho wrote:
Should you be able to dominate a senior student (brown or black belt) in freestyle practice? And if you can is their rank valid? I would expect that a certain level of combat effectiveness should be required.
I suspect that somewhere out there is an Uke getting an affirming nod from his instructor for taking some sloppy, aggressive, abrupt techniques and flowing with them enough not to get hurt and not hurting you.

You may think you dominated. In time you may think differently. Should you continue on your path in Aikido you may one day give some poor new Shite the same feeling of empowerment. Then you too will get the affirming nod from your instructor for taking such technique safely to yourself and others.

And when you see that nod, you'll have come full circle.

D
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Old 10-17-2005, 12:08 PM   #40
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Dominate?
I don't think any of us should be thinking about dominating while doing Aikido of all things. Does the senior student have better technique then you? How do you know this? Do you have good enough technique to know what good technique is? Aikido free practice is not a fight. In fights people who have never done Aikido often times beat up people who do practice Aikido. Some times if fights people who know nothing also beat up, boxers, wrestlers, judoka, kendoka, etc. etc. etc.....Fights are different then the practice of a martial art.

Aikido free practice (I assume you are talking about a Jiyu waza of some sort) is not so free...GASP...it's actually a structured practice, where people try and practice their Aikido techniques with more spontaneity. It's also a cooperative practice (not a fight) in a cooperative practice both sides have to do their part of the practice for the practice to work (thus cooperative). If you do something weird on your part, then he cannot perform on his.

If you got in a fight with the senior student you also might beat him at that. That doesn't mean he's not good at Aikido. Winning a fight only means you are a better fighter (or more athletic, or felt better that day, or had a weapon, or....). The study of a martial art will not insure that you never lose a fight again.

So if you mean you are dominating a cooperative practice, I don't think you understand the practice of Aikido (or cooperation). If you mean you are dominating a fight, we don't fight in Aikido. In Aikido we work together to learn technique, and other good stuff.

-Chris Hein
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Old 10-17-2005, 06:48 PM   #41
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

I do think there's something between cooperative practice and fighting where it's possible to talk about dominating. It doesn't mean that one party "looses" and the other "wins" but there are a few dojomates who when we work more freely, clearly have the upper hand. They have their balance more often than I have mine, and they have mine more often than I have theirs, and basically they have more chances of determining what is going on than I have. I would be happy to call that "dominating". Some of these dojomates are junior to me in rank.

kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 10-18-2005, 12:55 AM   #42
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Who dominates when you dance?'
The male usually takes the role of nage, and the female the role of uke, but no one dominates.

"basically they have more chances of determining what is going on than I have"
If you are playing the role of uke, then your job is predetermined, you fall down when thrown.
If you are playing the role of nage, then your predetermined job is to try and throw.

-Chris Hein
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Old 10-18-2005, 05:54 AM   #43
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

I was talking about training situations where we haven't pre-determined who is going to be uke and who is going to be nage. I understood that to be the original posters idea as well.

As to dancing... we seem to use "dominate" slightly differently. I would have been happy to say that the male in your example "dominates" the situation, as well.

kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 10-18-2005, 08:58 AM   #44
gstevens
 
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Really Ginger Rogers never used that word in any interviews that I have seen. If you watch her on the screen, I don't think it would be on my top list of words to pick from. As a matter of fact, I am not sure that she even followed Fred Aistair.......

Guy
:-)
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Old 10-18-2005, 02:21 PM   #45
Nick P.
 
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

I have begun to think that if a junior student can dominate me, then I have done my job well.

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Old 10-27-2005, 09:04 AM   #46
Joshua Livingston
 
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
... All five of these people wear a blue belt, yet each one of them has a different experience. Also, your experience with each of them was different.
Remember this when you see, meet and grapple with someone who wears a certain belt color. The color of the belt means little. The level of experience and the current level of fitness mean so much more!

Remember this!
Good training to you,
Roy Harris
www.royharris.com
****************************
Excellent post. Even if quoted from someone else.

Joshua Livingston
Aikido of Ashland (USAF)
Gold Coast Jujutsu
Capoeira Zambia Congo Group
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Old 10-27-2005, 11:36 AM   #47
James Davis
 
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Quote:
Nick Pittson wrote:
I have begun to think that if a junior student can dominate me, then I have done my job well.
I agree. I teach class once a week for my sensei. Some of my students are getting pretty good, and I'm gonna have to find some new tricks!

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 10-27-2005, 01:52 PM   #48
jonreading
 
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Gaaaa! Another post where aikidoka concede defeat before they even begin to fight! (sorry Chris, pet peeve). I've been spurred into action...

First off, let me soapbox for a moment. As a martial art, aikido is as good as most (if not all) martial arts. If I am resolved to use aikido to defend myself, that I am in a struggle to protect my life or well-being. If my opponent is better than I am, he/she will defeat me; if not, I will defeat him/her. I must rely on my own skill and determination to survive.

back to the thread...
Guy wrote a great post here. He has some great comments on personal aikido and training and I can't say anything better.

As instructors, we should be judged by the skill and development of our students as a review of our abilities as teachers. Lots of pressure? Damn right. I am responsible for teaching and if my students aren't learning than I need to change. Should a student dominate me? Maybe. If they do technique correctly, then yes; if they do technique incorrectly, no. Do I stop situation where there is confusion over who is in control. Yep. Most injuries I see happen when partners do not realize their roles and who is in control.

Part of learning aikido is learning the ever-changing role between uke and nage and who controls technique. But that is sometimes more advanced than beginning students are comfortable with...

Aikido is a fantastic martial art and I have never seen a shihan or quality high-ranking instructor ever create an opening in performing technique.
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Old 10-27-2005, 04:15 PM   #49
MaryKaye
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Within fairly close ranks, people are not necessarily overall better or overall worse than each other; skills are piecemeal, and everyone has strengths and weaknesses. I know my sempai quite well, and there are a few places here and there where I can give them a great deal of trouble by playing to my strengths and their weaknesses. The places where they could reciprocate are of course too numerous to mention.... So it is quite possible I could "beat" one of them in a training situation, where they were not entirely free to choose the terms of engagement. It doesn't change the fact that they are much better than I am.

I have never forgotten the time when I found and exploited a weakness in my ikkyu partner's shihonage tanto-takeaway (I think I was gokyu at the time). I was quite triumphant, until he took the knife anyway and demonstrated all of the nice soft spots within reach. In a fight I would have had that little moment of triumph--I didn't fall when expected--and then I'd have been dead. I suspect that a lot of my "victories" are like that. I'm egotistical enough that it doesn't stop me from noticing and savoring them, but I try not to get cocky.

Mary Kaye
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Old 10-27-2005, 04:24 PM   #50
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Dominate a senior student....

Really nice post Mary Kaye, and a timely reminder.

Thanks!
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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