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Old 10-06-2005, 01:20 AM   #101
jk
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

I'd like some enlightenment too, Ahmad. The experiments David outlined above seem like a good way to grope for some answers. At our level, I think we should be less concerned with blending with everything that comes our way and more with just surviving...a mouthguard and a groin protector would be a good idea. Issues regarding power generation aside, these experiments should also be good indicators of the physical fitness levels of the parties involved.

As for the French building-jumping thing, google "Le Parkour."

Back to our regularly scheduled brouhaha...
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Old 10-06-2005, 05:10 AM   #102
eyrie
 
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Actually, the quote from Kancho Shioda's Total Aikdo is "In a real battle, atemi is 70%, technique is 30%". It doesn't say what technique. Could be throws, could be joint locks, could be anything. Or it could be that all technique goes out the window and you'll only probably use 30% of what you know.

I believe the 70% atemi/30% throws quote comes from Saito. And the 90% atemi quote from Tohei. (But I could be wrong).

It also depends on how you define atemi. In the strictest sense, atemi is striking a pressure or vital point. In a very loose sense, it is simply striking. I tend to use it in an even looser sense. It's more like the intent of striking or cutting through something other than uke's body. If you can touch the person (and you should because you will be standing in the spot they are about to occupy), you can strike.

However, "striking", for me at least, isn't in the sense of "launching" an appendage (although sometimes it could involve that). Usually, it means, touching uke and sensing their energy, and cutting thru their center with my whole body. To me that is "atemi".

So for me, a throw like irimi nage, isn't necessarily the twirly dance where uke simply falls over at the end, but it is an inside elbow strike (actually more like a bounce using uke's head as an orange) against uke's jaw (nice collection of pressure points there), using the entire body by driving the power thru the forward knee. That's only one variation. There are many more like that - all with some sort of striking or cutting action.

Sometimes the strike is not overt, or that some part of uke's body is struck. Sometimes, the strike occurs at an angle into the "dead zone" such that uke's energy is led into the "black hole". E.g. katate tori kokyu nage tenkan, where it looks like you're "punching" forward, but uke is hanging off the punching arm and into a forward ukemi.

So, I don't really see aikido as X% atemi and Y% something else. To me all of aikido involves some sort of a strike or multiple strikes. (Yes, even pins and joint locks too). A good example would be to do the same aikido techniques with a weapon - a short stick, staff or bokken - in your hand - not to use the weapon as a striking implement as such, but to use the extension of the whole body as a striking implement.

George Ledyard posted a response here quoting Peter Goldsbury as saying that it was more like 100% atemi.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=22


FWIW.

Ignatius
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Old 10-06-2005, 05:55 AM   #103
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Jesus there is so much to read, and so little of it is about the topic...
The reason Aikido has stoped growing is because people keep talking about how they have been doing ikkyo for "X" amont of years. There has not been anouther O-sensei, so apparently we are all doing something wrong! We should be working together instead of being so catty.

-Chris Hein
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Old 10-06-2005, 07:27 AM   #104
Ron Tisdale
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
But is the ultimate physical aiki being able to blend with opponents no matter the speed? Because I'm not getting there.
I don't think we can *tell* you what the ultimate aiki is. I don't even think most of us can *show* you. But my own opinion, for what it's worth, is that the ultimate aiki is that when uke begins their intention to attack, they are unbalanced. The next level down, when they touch you, they are unbalanced. The next level down, when they grab you firmly, they are unbalanced. In the end, to me, it all comes back to kuzushi. How you obtain that, how you establish, maintain, break connection with uke. I think one of the problems with modern aikido is our over arching concern with 'blending'. My own teacher asked "what is this blending", when I used the term once. As he is Japanese, I assume he understands awase just fine. This over arching concept of 'blending' sometimes seems to get in the way of things like atemi. If all you want to do is blend, striking doesn't seem to make sense.

But if you think in terms of connection, unbalancing, displacing uke...these concepts seem to work well with atemi. I think David's experiments are an excellent place to start exploring these ideas on the mat.

Finally, I think most of us have more agreement than we think on these issues. I used the same book as a reference as Mike, as have many others. I have seen very few people talking about X amount of years...go back and count the number of times someone actually said it. Compared to how many times someone *said* someone said it. Mountain out of mole hill.

Best,
Ron

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Old 10-06-2005, 07:37 AM   #105
Ron Tisdale
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
And the answer is:

It's a koan and you couldn't understand it yet. I get it.


Mike
That wasn't the answer Mike...that was ONE post, which had many other things in it that WEREN'T koans. The majority of the posts referenced the same book you and I mentioned.

Best,
Ron

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Old 10-06-2005, 07:59 AM   #106
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
This over arching concept of 'blending' sometimes seems to get in the way of things like atemi. If all you want to do is blend, striking doesn't seem to make sense
Coming from the blendy side, this sentence struck my fancy. Striking does make sense, in fact there are times in practice when it's the only thing that makes any sense. Where I have a difficulty (one of many of mine, but then I'm slow like that) is that some posters seem to intimate their aikido is foremost strikes, technique used if necessary for finish.

Perhaps what would help my confusion over this is if people could describe what training they actually use for developing the strikes they use in aikido (such as David has kindly provided) and any specific training they do in the dojo as standard (individual extra training/special seminars neglected for now)

Hoist by my own petard, I'll start. We have four basic "approved" atemis (i.e.those you're supposed to use other than the normal randori flailing helplessly). Straight punch, upward elbow strike, backfist and uppercut. These are deemed the punches you can still execute even if someone is holding or trapping the arm to be used. Neglectful as most of us are, we practice them in isolation I would say at most once a month but are expected to be used in randori and more advanced versions of the technique (basically close and any attack). Otherwise, I would say our aikido practice is fairly standard, emphasizing techniques under various grades of compliance (full to none) with weapon work according to the syllabus (or at the weapons only class).

However, outside their use in a technique, we spend very little time of the art of striking and the subsequent conditioning that goes with it. Now my own experience only covers I would say a dozen or so dojos, but I've yet to be at an aikido dojo where learning how to strike as a discipline in it's own right was a large part of the standard practice (and don't get me started on kicks) such as you'd find in say a jujitsu dojo. So I'd be interested to hear others experiences (sits back and waits for John and Wendy's description of useful striking exercises they commonly do)

yours curiously (but still prepared to be a smart-arse)

OT on koans, I agree, you can't just spoon-feed people and expect them to learn, but if koan-lites are being supplied without any further guidance other than "practice" I'd be hesitant about their effectiveness
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Old 10-06-2005, 08:11 AM   #107
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote:
Are you implying a martial art with 70% ukemi doesn't need to practice mostly atemi?
70 or 90, you should know how to hit. It's not simple and it's not academic... it needs to be practiced. I don't think you need to know how to use the ancient "Phoenix Eye Fist" (with the protruding knuckle of the middle finger), although that configuration is traditional in most Chinese and Japanese martial arts. But you do have to know and practice the body mechanics so that you can hit with most parts of the body. If you can hit with most parts of the body, you can apply atemi pretty much as you wish, thus assisting any throws you make.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 10-06-2005, 08:17 AM   #108
Mike Sigman
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Actually, the quote from Kancho Shioda's Total Aikdo is "In a real battle, atemi is 70%, technique is 30%". It doesn't say what technique. Could be throws, could be joint locks, could be anything. Or it could be that all technique goes out the window and you'll only probably use 30% of what you know.
Heh. I agree with that last. I have "Aikido Shugyu" open in front of me and it says on page 19:

"However, Ueshiba Morihei Sensei himself, who was my master at one point, expressed himself in the following manner. He said, "In a real fight, Aikido is 70 percend atemi and 30 percent throwing." Based on my own experience, I can say this is precisely the case."

Regards,

Mike
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Old 10-06-2005, 08:29 AM   #109
Ron Tisdale
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Where I have a difficulty (one of many of mine, but then I'm slow like that) is that some posters seem to intimate their aikido is foremost strikes, technique used if necessary for finish.
I'm sorry, I didn't catch that in the thread myself. Could you perhaps point me to an illustration of this in one of the posts?

Quote:
Perhaps what would help my confusion over this is if people could describe what training they actually use for developing the strikes they use in aikido (such as David has kindly provided) and any specific training they do in the dojo as standard (individual extra training/special seminars neglected for now)
Well, I think I mentioned some of the things here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...226#post119226

But I'll try to fill in a bit.

In the basic technique, atemi are part and parcel of most of them. Instructors work on things like taking uke's balance with movement, combined with targeting specifc points of uke's anatomy (the spot between uke's upper lip and nose, the short ribs, the liver), aligning the hips so that there is power in the strike, maintaining the proper ma ai so that the distance is correct for proper application of power, etc. This is combined with different fist configurations (sometimes the first knuckle protruding, sometimes a palm strike [ala shomen ate], sometimes using the knuckles in more of a backfist). Because Yoshinkan aikido tends to place a fair amount of emphasis on the basic technique, you see these types of things in almost every class to one extent or another.

Some people are quick to discount the things we learn from buki waza...but I think that's a mistake. The alignment for the basic stances and strikes (we have kata specifically for that) is very important for learning how to express power.

I do not think that the body mechanics for the aikido I've been learning is seperate from the body mechanics for our strikes. I think that is why I see atemi as being intergrated into aikido. In the case of a side strike, if I block and strike at the same time I pivot on the big toe with the knee, hip and shoulder in alignment, there is a great deal of power in the strike. Even a slashing strike across the eyes. And it doesn't stop uke's power, but it continues it in the direction of the off-balancing. The same body mechanics that allow me to unbalance uke add power to the strike. When I practice 180 degree pivot with partner, I practice the body mechanics I need to deliver atemi in that situation. It's not two or three separate things, it's one thing. Pivot, block [redirect, blend, lead, yada yada] and strike.

I know you excepted special seminars and such, but I will mention that at the branch dojo I used to train at, we did have special seminars taught by yudansha in karate and other striking arts. I see nothing wrong with that, as it makes sense to me to make use of the skills present in the dojo to raise everyone's level.

Hope that answers some of your questions, but if there are specific things you'd like me to elaborate on, please ask.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:54 AM   #110
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Hi Ron,
Quote:
I'm sorry, I didn't catch that in the thread myself...
it's probably just my poor reading comprehension, but when people enthusiastically embrace a 90% strike rate or even "Piffle, mines up to 100%" I wonder where the technique is.

Thanks for the link, I did miss your mention of a 20 min warm up (skim reading - the curse of reading websites at work), but could I ask you to amplify this and your nice prior post concerning atemi in technique - just how often do you guess the warm-ups are and what do they consist of? For example, are you doing shadow atemi? Hitting pads etc. Similarly, within your basic techniques which you mentioned, what sort of intensity do you normally hit uke with?

I'm just trying to get a feel for the standard intensity of striking that people regularly use when training and what they've found fits best into their regular class (but totally agree with regard to the idea of importing outside experts, we have done so in the past as well)
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:32 AM   #111
Ron Tisdale
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
Hi Ron, it's probably just my poor reading comprehension, but when people enthusiastically embrace a 90% strike rate or even "Piffle, mines up to 100%" I wonder where the technique is.
I think some of that was sarcastic...

Quote:
Thanks for the link, I did miss your mention of a 20 min warm up (skim reading - the curse of reading websites at work),
Hmm, maybe *my* comprehension is slipping...I'll go back and check, but I don't remember mentioning a 20 minute warm up.

Quote:
but could I ask you to amplify this and your nice prior post concerning atemi in technique - just how often do you guess the warm-ups are and what do they consist of? For example, are you doing shadow atemi? Hitting pads etc.
The warm ups in yoshinkan are balance oriented and light balastic stretching, in my opinion. I make a point of warming up prior to class, especially my knees. I don't think the warm ups add to striking skills per se. We don't do shadow atemi or use striking pads on a regular basis in class, though there is some of that in some advanced classes (striking pads) and black belt preparation.

In the branch dojo where I practiced for many years, there were striking dummies (Bob, anyone?) and board breaking equipment that we 'borrowed' on occation. I made a point of using these under the supervision of a 3rd dan in shotokan I trained with in aikido.

Quote:
Similarly, within your basic techniques which you mentioned, what sort of intensity do you normally hit uke with?
It varies depending on your partner. There are some where a casual push to the side is sufficient for the block. There are others where you'd be picking yourself up off the floor if you used a casual push to block the atemi. I personally vary my power and how close I get to contact with uke depending on the day, the uke, the target (body vs face) etc. Pretty much the same as when I trained in karate or kung fu years ago. You didn't push a black belt with more than you could handle in return (learned that real quick, got tired of picking myself up off the floor) and you DIDN'T beat up on beginners. Aikido is no different. I control my strikes so that they are appropriate for the situation.

I remember one class where a brown belt gave the wrong attack (but very strongly), and caught me off guard. I simply evaded, switched stance and did a back fist, then started a variation of the technique. Because I was caught off guard, it was a fast hard strike, and it wasn't blocked. Thanks to the time sparring years ago, I stopped it before I broke his nose.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:37 AM   #112
Ron Tisdale
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Ah, I think I've found what you were referring to:

Quote:
its taught (gasp) when we spend up to 20 minutes before technique with the 4th dan working just on our attacks.
In the instance I'm describing here, the instructor had us practice striking each other with side strike and front strike, and uke blocks the strike. He wanted to ensure that we were striking hard, with good alignment and center, and that we were recieving the power correctly. So one person strikes, the other blocks, both sides, then switch. Kind of like the one step sparring you might see in shotokan, but not.

The block for a side strike was either to enter early before the strike reached its power, and cut out using the power of turning your hips coordinated with turning your palm out, or to pivot and cut down if blocking later in the attack.

For a front strike, later was ukenegaeshi (sp), early was almost like a front strike except you control the elbow with the back hand, the lead hand circles up to absorb the power of the strike.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 10-06-2005 at 10:41 AM.

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Old 10-06-2005, 11:06 AM   #113
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

An earlier post (106?) queried about the source of striking in aikido. I have found various different karate arts and daito ryu to be the most similar. I am regularly suprised to find similarities in basic karate kata to the body structure and striking in aikido. Nothing fancy...

Also, Ledyard Sensei published some great pieces on attemi in the monthly columns section that includes a definition of atemi and the various implementations of atemi in aikido. That may help clear up some confusion about "defining" atemi, etc...
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Old 10-06-2005, 11:39 AM   #114
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

An interesting part about the koan reference…

These experiments, I feel, can show us how views that at first appeared to be quite opposite to each other are in fact of the same vein. You know, it is like those kind of debates when you ask, "What is moving the flag?" and three folks answer differently: "The wind is moving the flag." "The mind is moving the flag." "The flag is moving the mind." All of these statements are both right and wrong -- to some degree -- which would mean that eventually, somewhere, they could actually overlap with each other -- supporting each other rather than denouncing each other. I feel that is what is going on with, for example, the positions regarding that you can use atemi to set up a throw and that using atemi to set up a throw would interrupt the flow of a throw.

We have this possible interpretation, suggesting "Aikido is 90% atemi" means that "Aikido tactics are grounded upon (or made practical via) a strategy of atemi." In addition, we have these perfectly legitimate critiques that suggest that it is not possible or practical to see atemi as a cure all for a given throw and pin that is simply being (interpreted as) misapplied. Moreover, we also have the view that it is not always possible to strike in the same place that it is possible to throw or pin. These views, and others like them, have been propounded in a way to (sort of) debunk the statement "Aikido is 90% atemi."

Interestingly, the experiments I suggested one could perform to gain an understanding regarding the statement "Aikido is 90% atemi" can also actually verify these kinds of critiques as accurate. This would mean that these critiques are actually part of the interpretation "Aikido tactics are based upon a strategy of atemi." That is to say, when conducting the first experiment, you would see that you would probably find it very difficult to strike, or at least you would see that the greater mechanical advantage would lie in throwing as opposed to in striking. In the same way that one would find throwing difficult in the second experiment, one would find striking difficult in the first experiment. This means that the experiments can prove both the view that Aikido tactics are based upon the strategy of atemi AND that atemi tactics are less likely to be substitutable and/or complimentary to throwing and/or pinning tactics (as some have suggested).

When I come to this conclusion, I tend to embrace atemi training, atemi strategy, and atemi tactics more fully. That is to say, I accept the view that Aikido tactics are based upon a strategy of atemi). However, I also seem to distance myself from positions that long to include strikes in the midst of throws or pins (to injure, distract, or to cause a reaction, etc.), that see strikes as setups (at the beginning of moves), and/or that make an effort to include strikes in their tactical architectures for the sake of meeting some magic percentage and/or to make the "perfect" mixed martial art. This means, I also accept the view that atemi is not a cure all tactic, that atemi tactics are not substitutable and/or complimentary with throwing tactics, etc.

Continuing with this line of thought: Like the flag moving the mind and the mind moving the flag, one can conduct these experiments from the opposite direction, working from the position of these above-mentioned critiques. In doing so, I believe, one will come to see that as Aikido (Aikido tactics -- e.g. throwing and pinning in particular) is 90% atemi, Atemi is 90% Aikido (i.e. grappling, throwing, pinning). To a karateka or to a mix martial artist who may not have wrestled with the first part of this idea (i.e. Aikido is 90% atemi), he/she upon hearing this may want to just say, "Duh!" (i.e. "The wind is moving the flag.") However, for a person that was just told how one thing is 90% of another, and is now being told that that other is 90% of the first thing, a whole different sense of understanding arises. What kind of understanding is that? It is the kind where one can say "yes" to all three kinds of statement (i.e. the wind is moving the flag, the mind is moving the flag, the flag is moving the mind). That is to say, one can say "yes" to "Aikido is 90% atemi," "Atemi is 90% Aikido," and "Aikido and atemi have nothing to do with each other." Go figure. How? Conduct the same experiments mentioned above.

It is my position that such things will only remain as esoteric as our resistance to involve ourselves in these types of trials.

David M. Valadez
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Old 10-06-2005, 12:30 PM   #115
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
Perhaps what would help my confusion over this is if people could describe what training they actually use for developing the strikes they use in aikido (such as David has kindly provided) and any specific training they do in the dojo as standard (individual extra training/special seminars neglected for now)
1-10 Kumi jo
1-5 Kumitachi
20 jo saburi
1-7 Ken saburi
31 count kata
13 count kata
San ju ichi no kumi jo

Aikido is filled with atemi practice, weapons atemi. Most of us practice it regularly.......
(I only included the Iwama weapons, because thats what I do)


-Chris
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Old 10-06-2005, 01:07 PM   #116
Mike Sigman
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Well, I agree with you, Chris, that the foundation for atemi comes from the weapons practice, however that can be as misleading as saying you practice kokyu in every technique in Aikido.... the theory is correct but in actual practice most people are just doing rote movements. It's like the comment I once made about walking into a dojo (with maybe the idea of practicing there on a regular basis), took one look at the way the "Sensei" was swinging his bokken, and walked back out. Yet he would be one of those people that is convinced he is training Aikido because he starts off every class with a lot of bokken swinging.

In my opinion, most people should be working on their atemi via mainly bokken swinging, but just as correct Aikido movement can look like normal movement, correct bokken swinging can be deceptive, too. That being said, I'd then expand into an agreement with you about the rest of weapons practice.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 10-06-2005, 03:11 PM   #117
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

I'm not sure if I understand you Mike, but if I do get what you are saying, then that's not really what I meant.

Atemi dose NOT mean a strike delivered with the hand or foot or knee or elbow or what ever SPECIFICALLY. An atemi is only a blow to the body, that blow can come from anything, a rock, a frying pan or what ever else. The saying is not "Aikido is 90% punching" or "Aikido is 90% kicking", it's simply "aikido is 90% atemi". Bokken saburi is atemi training (learning to strike a body with a stick), I'm not saying that weapons training makes my punches and kicks better, I'm saying that the weapons practice IS the atemi practice (I'm learning to hit someone with a stick). Aikido does not do a good job of training punches and kicks, and that's not it's goal. Aikido's true goal is to teach "Aiki", Aiki involves moving in relation to something else, generally over distance, something coming at you, coming at your body, to try and knock it down or out or what have you. This something coming at you is trying to hit your body, thus causing an atemi. By looking at it this way it's clear that Aikido is at least 90% atemi (dealing with something coming at you), however Aikido is by no means 90% punching....

-Chris (broken record) Hein

Last edited by ChrisHein : 10-06-2005 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 10-06-2005, 03:18 PM   #118
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Hi Chris:

No, note what I said (I'm fairly precise when I speak): "the foundation for atemi comes from the weapons practice". I did not

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
An atemi is only a blow to the body, that blow can come from anything, a rock, a frying pan or what ever else. The saying is not "Aikido is 90% punching" or "Aikido is 90% kicking", it's simply "aikido is 90% atemi". Bokken saburi is atemi training (learning to strike a body with a stick), I'm not saying that weapons training makes my punches and kicks better, I'm saying that the weapons practice is the atemi practice. Aikido dose not do a good job of training punches and kicks, that's not it's goal.
I agree that atemi is a blow. Where I disagree with you is when you say bokken saburi is atemi training with a stick. I'm saying that suburi training has a much wider application than that and is the basis for just about any type of blow with any type of weapon, including the hand.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 10-06-2005, 03:30 PM   #119
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

No offence Mike, but if you think unarmed blows (punchs, kicks etc.) are the same as blows with a weapon, I don't think you've done enough training with either. Yes good body use is good body use, and applicable to anything where you are using your body, but a good boxer is not a good fencer, likewise being good with a bokken is not going to make you a good kickboxer. Armed combat and unarmed combat are differnt things.

-Chris
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Old 10-06-2005, 03:47 PM   #120
Mike Sigman
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
No offence Mike, but if you think unarmed blows (punchs, kicks etc.) are the same as blows with a weapon, I don't think you've done enough training with either.
I don't think that at all, Chris. Look at precisely what I said. I'm fairly certain you don't understand what I'm saying, but I'm still being factual. Look at it from that perspective.

Mike
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:01 PM   #121
Upyu
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
No offence Mike, but if you think unarmed blows (punchs, kicks etc.) are the same as blows with a weapon, I don't think you've done enough training with either. Yes good body use is good body use, and applicable to anything where you are using your body, but a good boxer is not a good fencer, likewise being good with a bokken is not going to make you a good kickboxer. Armed combat and unarmed combat are differnt things.

-Chris
Chris:
About 4 years ago I would've agreed.
Except the "yari"/"bo" training I've been doing with my teacher here in Tokyo has produced exactly those results. You actually DO strike exactly as you would use the weapon. (And yes he's fought full contact, plus he's used this different kind of striking to dominate kickboxers/ shoot boxers etc)

But you could look at it this way.
The weapons training is only a way to "train" your body correctly.
If you don't realize how to use your training tool correctly then you'll never develop the correct attributes needed to make this stuff work for you.

You're training body principals. Which means that they apply to everything.

If you're still using your body differently when you strike and when you "use" a weapon, then I'd have to say you most likely haven't absorbed the principals yet. (Only my opinoin, don't take offense )

Last edited by Upyu : 10-06-2005 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:53 PM   #122
eyrie
 
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

I have to agree with Mike here:
Quote:
But you do have to know and practice the body mechanics so that you can hit with most parts of the body. If you can hit with most parts of the body, you can apply atemi pretty much as you wish, thus assisting any throws you make
This is spot on! A strike or blow need not necessarily be done overtly with the fist (punch) or foot (kick). It can be (and usually is!) really subtle use of the "whole" body or other specific body parts.

Unarmed or armed, the fundamental movements are identical. Ask any kali/escrimador...

If I say, katate tori kokyu nage if performed like a jo tsuki and yokomen uchi shiho nage if performed like a sequence of sword "strikes" makes for powerful technique, would it make it clearer? Likewise, doesn't the end movement of hiji ate kokyu nage look like a low forward lunge punch? It's not really a "punch" since you're not "striking" with the fist, but the body mechanics involved are similar, are they not?

Ignatius
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Old 10-06-2005, 05:39 PM   #123
Upyu
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Likewise, doesn't the end movement of hiji ate kokyu nage look like a low forward lunge punch? It's not really a "punch" since you're not "striking" with the fist, but the body mechanics involved are similar, are they not?
I remember reading in "Hiden" (one of Japan's more popular bugei magazines) that Shioda said grasping the concept of "Tai ju idou" (体重移動 ) or purely being able to move one's mass was extremely important. He said it was of paramount importance whether you were doing strikes/throws what have you.

An idea for those that're willing to experiment.
If you want to see if the strikes are using effecient body movement, (using the same body movement that you use in your throws, joint locks etc) have someone hold an airshield. Perform the same movement against the airshield. Does it dissapate on the surface, or does it go "through" the airshield? (The person on the other side should feel it "in" them)
One important thing to keep in mind is that the "intent" when doing a throw or strike is pretty much the same. All that changes really is the external "shape".

Hint: If your strikes make a huge noise when they connect w/ a bag or airshield, most of the power dissapates on the surface. (This goes for a lot of the Thai kickers out there too
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Old 10-06-2005, 06:26 PM   #124
eyrie
 
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Exactly. Strike thru the target. Throw thru the earth. Extend beyond the cosmos.

Ignatius
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Old 10-06-2005, 06:47 PM   #125
Mike Sigman
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Re: atemi is 90% of Aikido

Well, that's not exactly what I'd mean by "intent", Ignatius, and I don't think Rob meant that either, IINM.

Mike
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