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Old 07-26-2001, 08:12 AM   #26
Juan Alberto
Dojo: Tengru Dojo
Location: Miami Lakes, Fl
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I believe that Jim23 says it best "Remember, all generalizations are false" Aikido has the technique to deal with all sorts of attacks & attackers. It is up to the Nage to know what techniques to use in defense. I am not closed minded regarding Aikido I have proven to myself that it works, however it is up to the individual to have more than just a basic working knowledge of the techniques. If you feel that Aikido isn't truly effective why do you guys waste your time training in an Art that is ineffective?

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto
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Old 07-26-2001, 08:38 AM   #27
REK
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Having practiced two forms of karate into yudansha ranking and judo about halfway to shodan, I found aikido. I also discovered that aikdido was the ultimate martial art--for me.

My personal experiences at work have pitted my aikido against the most non-compliant of ukes, severly mentally ill felons. Sure, knowing how to talk, walk and look are a huge asset in that setting. But sometimes, especially if an individual is not in his right mind, none of that helps. That leaves the physical aspect. I have yet to be disappointed. As I said in a previous post, my karate training was valuable, but as a state employee, I do not have the luxury of striking those who would do me harm, even when they have had martial arts training.

As far as other martial arts, it doesn't matter. If your training is thorough and rigorous, your personal dedication to your own improvement (mentally, physically, all of those) is high, then you have nothing to fear. The specific art is immaterial. We all know aikidoka who you would not try to kick on a bet. We also know aikidoka who couldn't catch a basketball tossed to them. Is that aikido's fault? I don't think so. Practice, practice, practice. Or answer Juan's question honestly.


Rob

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Old 07-26-2001, 08:43 AM   #28
Juan Alberto
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We aren't talking about beginners or advanced practitioners but the arts themselves. I truley believe that Aikido has the techniques that are able to defend against any attack (except bullets, or projectiles)definately not like in the movies where the MAist never gets touched by one single blow. If you have ever watched a boxing match I would tend to believe that at one time or another you have said to yourself "Why didn't he just hit him with the other hand after missing the stike with the first hand" its called body mechanics when you strike with commitment your body can not change it's initial direction until the momentum has diminished sufficiently. Thats why the jab in boxing is so effective it is mostly a distracting stike. Hence thats why in boxing they are not allowed to GRAB. If you followed that jab back by grabbing it you could do a variety of techniques (shihonage, iriminage...)As for Karate I too have seen guys follow thruogh with a variety of combinations but with the opponent fighting HIS fight (strikes & kicks only)It is so much easier to defend against an attacker that is not expecting you to come into is space while grabbing and turning and lets not forget striking back. The techniques are there I have been in street fights and my Aikido worked (not as pretty looking as in the dojo)I truly believe that if you (anyone)has such doubts about Aikido being effective I would suggest that you don't waste a single minute or penny trainning in an art you don't believe in. I just can't sit back and read posts of supposed AIKIDOKA saying it isn't effective. As for we Aikidoka practice techniques in a choriographed manner...YES we do. Remember we are supposed to be learning the techniques and to properly learn them we must choriograph the attack. In my dojo as you progress in your Aikido training we no longer say to uke "ok shomen attack with the left hand" we just start to move a little quicker. I would also dare to say that if any of your Sensei read most of the post here they would be greatly saddned.

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto

"The purpose of training is to tighten up the slack, toughen the body, and polish the spirit".
"Morihei Ueshiba"
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Old 07-26-2001, 10:39 AM   #29
Andy
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Quote:
Originally posted by Juan Alberto
We aren't talking about beginners or advanced practitioners but the arts themselves.

No, at least you were talking about "my AIKIDo (sic)" working and stating that "I am an accomplished Aikidoka."

What is your experience in working with people from other martial arts at your own level? How many times have you sparred with someone who has

It seems like pretty much everyone here has been honest about their level of training and realizing things from where they are rather than putting the ideal aikido on a pedestal and worshipping it as the ultimate martial art.
Quote:
I truley believe that Aikido has the techniques that are able to defend against any attack (except bullets, or projectiles)

Really? You practice newaza often in your aikido classes? What about quick, non-"lethal" cuts from a knife ala Kali?
Quote:
Thats why the jab in boxing is so effective it is mostly a distracting stike.

How many jabs have you received to your face in your life?

The same applies to karate and other punching/kicking arts, too. Not every single attack is a so-called "commited" round-house haymaker. Things called "feints" exist, you know.
Quote:
As for Karate I too have seen guys follow thruogh with a variety of combinations but with the opponent fighting HIS fight (strikes & kicks only)

You've "seen" such. How many times have you truly experienced it?
Quote:
I would also dare to say that if any of your Sensei read most of the post here they would be greatly saddned.

He'd probably very much appreciate the fact that people aren't hung up on grandiose thoughts about aikido being the ultimate martial art but are rather thinking about their own practice and training.
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Old 07-26-2001, 12:06 PM   #30
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If I remember correctly once a kick or punch is initiated it's direction can NOT be changed

You do not remember correctly. You seem to confuse "initiated" with "irrevocably committed".

A good kick or punch can be initiated at any time, but by definition, it only becomes committed WHEN IT IS TOO LATE FOR YOU TO STOP IT.
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Old 07-26-2001, 12:35 PM   #31
Juan Alberto
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I reached brown belt level in Kempo and Shodan level in Ju-Jitsu. I have competed in traditional Karate tournoments. I have sparred with other MA of my same rank (which is Nidan)and have faired very well against them, however when I am drawn into their fight as happens regularly with boxers I usually don't fair as well. Some of you seem to be wasting your time with these posts and Aikido since you do NOT believe in the art. As for my contribution to these post I will cease to comment and let you continue to bash an art that is to my opinion beyond your comprehension (technically).

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto, Sensei
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Old 07-26-2001, 12:38 PM   #32
Juan Alberto
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To be taken seriously and weigh someones opinion I believe they should come out and complete their profiles. It's real easy to talk up a storm when you are behind a shroud.


All cards on the table and we can discuss these issues on merrit.

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto, Sensei
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Old 07-26-2001, 12:55 PM   #33
Jim23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Juan Alberto
We aren't talking about beginners or advanced practitioners but the arts themselves. I truley believe that Aikido has the techniques that are able to defend against any attack (except bullets, or projectiles)definately not like in the movies where the MAist never gets touched by one single blow. If you have ever watched a boxing match I would tend to believe that at one time or another you have said to yourself "Why didn't he just hit him with the other hand after missing the stike with the first hand" its called body mechanics when you strike with commitment your body can not change it's initial direction until the momentum has diminished sufficiently. Thats why the jab in boxing is so effective it is mostly a distracting stike. Hence thats why in boxing they are not allowed to GRAB. If you followed that jab back by grabbing it you could do a variety of techniques (shihonage, iriminage...)As for Karate I too have seen guys follow thruogh with a variety of combinations but with the opponent fighting HIS fight (strikes & kicks only)It is so much easier to defend against an attacker that is not expecting you to come into is space while grabbing and turning and lets not forget striking back. The techniques are there I have been in street fights and my Aikido worked (not as pretty looking as in the dojo)I truly believe that if you (anyone)has such doubts about Aikido being effective I would suggest that you don't waste a single minute or penny trainning in an art you don't believe in. I just can't sit back and read posts of supposed AIKIDOKA saying it isn't effective. As for we Aikidoka practice techniques in a choriographed manner...YES we do. Remember we are supposed to be learning the techniques and to properly learn them we must choriograph the attack. In my dojo as you progress in your Aikido training we no longer say to uke "ok shomen attack with the left hand" we just start to move a little quicker. I would also dare to say that if any of your Sensei read most of the post here they would be greatly saddned.

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto

"The purpose of training is to tighten up the slack, toughen the body, and polish the spirit".
"Morihei Ueshiba"
Juan,

I'm tired of reading your posts (not because of what you say, but because you don't insert spaces between the paragraphs).

I think we are misunderstanding each other here. I have nothing against aikido - or you - in fact I think aikido - and probably you - is effective. I just get uncomfortable when people try to convince others here that nothing shy of a bullet can stop an aikidoist (unless you're an aikidoka like O-Sensei), especially if you are a student of abother MA (yuck). We know what aikido has to offer.

And yes, as you said, we train in a controlled environment and there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that, but it does contribute greatly to why some people "talk the talk without knowing if they can walk the walk" (I'd better stop the clichés before I get carried away).

Kudos to you if you train in/with another MA or if your approach to training is a little unconventional.

Peace, okay?

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 07-26-2001, 12:57 PM   #34
Jim23
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I posted before I saw your new posts.

So, you trained in karate. Good. Now we're talking.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 07-26-2001, 01:02 PM   #35
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My personal experiences at work have pitted my aikido against the most non-compliant of ukes, severly mentally ill felons. Sure, knowing how to talk, walk and look are a huge asset in that setting. But sometimes, especially if an individual is not in his right mind, none of that helps. That leaves the physical aspect. I have yet to be disappointed. As I said in a previous post, my karate training was valuable, but as a state employee, I do not have the luxury of striking those who would do me harm, even when they have had martial arts training.

If these people presented a real threat to your well-being, and if you did not have armed state employees backing you up, I'm sure you would grant yourself the luxury of striking.

As far as other martial arts, it doesn't matter. If your training is thorough and rigorous, your personal dedication to your own improvement (mentally, physically, all of those) is high, then you have nothing to fear.


Perhaps. I think some of us are arguing that Aikido training, as it is defined by Hombu, is generally not throrough and rigorous enough.

- Yes, they can define what Aikido is.
- No, I do not need to limit my training to their sanctioned "best practices." That is beside the point.

The specific art is immaterial.

In that case, stop going to class. Train at home by practicing the moves in "American Ninja 4".

We all know aikidoka who you would not try to kick on a bet.

I don't know any, and not because I haven't looked. Though, I believe they may exist.

We also know aikidoka who couldn't catch a basketball tossed to them. Is that aikido's fault? I don't think so. Practice, practice, practice.

Practice what, how much, and with whom? That is the subject of this discussion (as always), is it not?

Last edited by [Censored] : 07-26-2001 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 07-26-2001, 01:19 PM   #36
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To be taken seriously and weigh someones opinion I believe they should come out and complete their profiles. It's real easy to talk up a storm when you are behind a shroud.

I have been very critical of some of my past training partners on this forum. I prefer they hear it from me personally, rather than through a message board. So, my profile is empty.

If you can't deal with my posts, just ask the moderator to kick me out. Unsportsmanlike, but it's your prerogative.

All cards on the table and we can discuss these issues on merrit.

Sorry, pal, I always keep an ace up my sleeve. The name of your teacher, or the location of your school, have no bearing on this particular discussion.
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Old 07-26-2001, 01:38 PM   #37
Kestrel
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
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Talking Good answer!

Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
I am in total agreement with Jim on this one. Falling into self delusion brought about by lack of self critique is a serious problem. We are after all a Budo not a cult.

As Budoka we are learning to deal with agression not just by other Aikidoka. The question on how we can deal with a person who emphasizes this in their training is a valid one and finding the holes in our own training is part of the process.

Let's face it - the average Aikidoka does not train for violent confrontation, we have compliant Uke, we hide behind a false sense of moral superiority, and talk/write way more than we should.

On the other hand I know of several Aikidoka who train and compete in full contact PK sports and I have done a little bit myself. These people tend to agree with me when I say I will put up a well trained Aikidoka against a Karateka any day. The trick is to deal with the opponent based on your strengths not his. Most who train in Karate have their own set of limitations.


Thanks! This thread has really taken off all of a sudden

I agree with almost all of your points which is the reason I posted the original question. I'm trying to "fill in some holes" and understand things a little better. Any help is appreciated.

There seems to be some disagreement on whether I should even be asking the question though

What you pointed out (that Aikido IS a Budo, though a relatively non-violent one) is certainly true. All of us take different paths in our study of aikido and for me making sure that I have as many options as possible is one of those.

Tim
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Old 07-26-2001, 01:57 PM   #38
Kestrel
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Unhappy What we have here is a failure to communicate....

I don't think anyone is bashing aikido. I think we're all just trying to learn more about aikido and perhaps supplement it with other MA's.

While I trained in Tang Su Do for a short time I much prefer aikido for several reasons. But I don't have any illusion about being able to put into action all the techniques I've trained with. I think I would be able to manage SOME because when I train in the dojo some things seem to come up almost automatically even when I'm trying for something else...but certainly not all.

If you have trained in several other MA's and are advanced in aikido as well perhaps you can help us understand WHY you feel aikido is so effective and how to use it against other MA's.

I've been told by many people that it takes a relatively advanced student in aikido to be effective "on the street" and it seems to be a generally accepted opinion almong students of other MA's as well. Almost everyone agrees that aikido can be effective (even devastating) but that it has a much longer learning curve than other arts (such as boxing or karate)

Tim
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Old 07-26-2001, 02:41 PM   #39
Juan Alberto
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[quote]Originally posted by Jim23
[b]
Juan,

I'm tired of reading your posts (not because of what you say, but because you don't insert spaces between the paragraphs).


I think we are misunderstanding each other here. I have nothing against aikido - or you - in fact I think aikido - and probably you - is effective. I just get uncomfortable when people try to convince others here that nothing shy of a bullet can stop an aikidoist (unless you're an aikidoka like O-Sensei), especially if you are a student of abother MA (yuck). We know what aikido has to offer.

I totally agree with you. I am sorry if that's how I came across
And yes, as you said, we train in a controlled environment and there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that, but it does contribute greatly to why some people "talk the talk without knowing if they can walk the walk" (I'd better stop the clichés before I get carried away).

Kudos to you if you train in/with another MA or if your approach to training is a little unconventional.

Peace, okay?

Jim23


Sorry, I just get caught up in the discussion. I will try to remember to use paragrahs.

I believe that we were on the same page just didn't realize it. No, I don't mean to make anyone believe AIKIDO is IT. I do believe that most people whom practice Aikido are never taught the "how and why" the techniques work. I have been fortunate enough to study under and intructor that is a 10 degree in Ju-Jitsu and therefore he has a greater understanding of body mechanics. (how one's body reacts to strikes,blows, power and balance).

The how and where we train says alot for most practioners. That is why I am so bent on having discussions with people who are open to there MA background in their profiles. It is really easy to talk the talk and never have been in a single fight. In our dojo we call those "DOJO BOYS" it's a different thing to go up against someone hell bent on hurting you than full contact sparring.

And yes I do cross train but only because it is so readily available to me. I do think AIKIDo has everything I need. And of course on occassion we do have the seperated shoulder broken eye brow and definately the bloody lips. Our way of training in Aikido is out of the norm.

Keep the faith.....

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto

P.S. Did I do better with the paragraphs?

Last edited by Juan Alberto : 07-26-2001 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 07-26-2001, 02:50 PM   #40
Juan Alberto
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Re: What we have here is a failure to communicate....

Quote:
Originally posted by Kestrel
I don't think anyone is bashing aikido. I think we're all just trying to learn more about aikido and perhaps supplement it with other MA's.

The more you know the better it is for you.

While I trained in Tang Su Do for a short time I much prefer aikido for several reasons. But I don't have any illusion about being able to put into action all the techniques I've trained with. I think I would be able to manage SOME because when I train in the dojo some things seem to come up almost automatically even when I'm trying for something else...but certainly not all.

It all comes from years of hard training. Don't give up

If you have trained in several other MA's and are advanced in aikido as well perhaps you can help us understand WHY you feel aikido is so effective and how to use it against other MA's.

That has always been my intention, The techniques in Aikido will work, the rest is up to you. You have to put your heart into it though.

I've been told by many people that it takes a relatively advanced student in aikido to be effective "on the street" and it seems to be a generally accepted opinion almong students of other MA's as well. Almost everyone agrees that aikido can be effective (even devastating) but that it has a much longer learning curve than other arts (such as boxing or karate)

To an extent that is true but, I believe it relys mostly on the practitioner. I have students who have half the mat time of some of the higher ranking students and are 3 times as good. If you don't believe in yout technique and most of all yourself nothing will work.

As for asking the question....Ask all the questions you like the only STUPID question is the question not ASKED.

Sincerely,

Juan Alberto

Tim
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Old 07-26-2001, 03:18 PM   #41
Jim23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Juan Alberto
P.S. Did I do better with the paragraphs?
Ha ha ... we all learn something here. Some people come here as typers and leave as typists (that was bad).

And don't worry about apologizing - not to me anyhow. Besides, you have nothing to apologize about.

I think I now understand why O-Sensei preferred (required?) students that had experience in other MAs. They weren't coming in totally green. They knew how to either kick or throw, (take a kick or throw?) or whatever; even if they chose never to use said MA again.

Jim23

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Old 07-26-2001, 08:09 PM   #42
REK
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]
If these people presented a real threat to your well-being, and if you did not have armed state employees backing you up, I'm sure you would grant yourself the luxury of striking.

Yes, I probably would. But I don't at work. And, despite what you see on HBO, there are no armed state employees to back me up. Forensic assessment is done in a secluded pod for sake of confidentiality. Response time is approximately 90 seconds, which is a long time.

As far as other martial arts, it doesn't matter. If your training is thorough and rigorous, your personal dedication to your own improvement (mentally, physically, all of those) is high, then you have nothing to fear.

Perhaps. I think some of us are arguing that Aikido training, as it is defined by Hombu, is generally not throrough and rigorous enough.


That may be. I have never been to Hombu.

The specific art is immaterial.

In that case, stop going to class. Train at home by practicing the moves in "American Ninja 4".


Chris, you missed the point. I have chosen the art that I want to learn. And it was not featured in "American Ninja 4". Aikido is not right for all people due to their individual needs/desires/goals.

We all know aikidoka who you would not try to kick on a bet.

I don't know any, and not because I haven't looked. Though, I believe they may exist.


Might I suggest Boulder Aikikai's Summer Camp in the Rockies? There will be a whole slew of people like that there.

We also know aikidoka who couldn't catch a basketball tossed to them. Is that aikido's fault? I don't think so. Practice, practice, practice.

Practice what, how much, and with whom? That is the subject of this discussion (as always), is it not?


Practice whatever is right for you, it may not be Aikido. Practice a LOT, and do it with the best, most skilled, most accessible instructors you can find. I certainly am biased in favor of those I have seen or trained with, but yours might be different. Go find them.

Rob

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Old 08-15-2001, 04:15 PM   #43
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aikido vs. strong arts

I'm new to aikiweb and I'm also new to aikido. I just joined some two months ago.

I also have that question in mind for quite a while. What can an aikidoka do towards a let's say a karateka?

I've also been thinking... what if you were able to lead the karateka's mind and get him open? Wouldn't that help? I think it matters on knowing yourself and your own art.

I dunno... that's just my opinion.

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Old 08-15-2001, 05:20 PM   #44
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Well Jim, I don't know...I've never heard of O Sensei REQUIRING (will someone please teach me how to italicize) another MA background. We of course know of many of his students who had other MA backgrounds, but think---Aikido was just 'invented', this is pre- and immediately post-war Japan, and the ONLY Aikido dojo had no Aiki kids program. Odds are kind of in favor that his adult students had had training in another MA.
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Old 08-15-2001, 05:33 PM   #45
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I'm back, just wanted to check my facts in the Aikido Journal interview I read last week...a 7th dan, one of the last generation of O Sensei's students, mentioned that the sport of his youth in post war Japan, until he reached college ---baseball! He had some judo (sounds like not much); wouldn't be surprised if the same could be said for the students who train there today. Different time, different place.
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Old 08-15-2001, 10:07 PM   #46
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Ai symbol Re: aikido vs. strong arts

Quote:
Originally posted by jeremy_l
I'm new to aikiweb and I'm also new to aikido. I just joined some two months ago.

I also have that question in mind for quite a while. What can an aikidoka do towards a let's say a karateka?

I'm also new to Aikiweb, but I've seen many karateka in the dan grade category become airborne to the most effortless kotegaeshi you may ever see.

I also have some Karate instructors in my Aikido class and they generally agree that Aikido technique does possess a level of superiority over the typical karate attacks. This is of course with all things being equal. I believe at the highest levels, superiority in martial arts is directly linked to mastering oneself and being able to control aggression with effectively extended ki and will power.

I've also been thinking... what if you were able to lead the karateka's mind and get him open? Wouldn't that help? I think it matters on knowing yourself and your own art.

As far as knowing yourself goes, I always refer to Sun Tzu in "The Art of War." -He who knows himself or his enemy alone, can only win half the battle. But he who knows both himself and his enemy has won the whole battle.

I dunno... that's just my opinion.


--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 09-06-2001, 12:04 AM   #47
William Hazen
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Smile

Hello all,
this is my first post on the board and I look forward to reading and learning from all of you. I practice Aikido as taught by Shoji Nishio Sensei...Our practice emphasizes Atemi all through the technique and as a martial arts veteran of 30+ years I have found Nishio Sensei's practice to be very effective. I suggest you may want to check some of his videos which can be found in the Aikido Journal. Before I started practice with Mike Fowler a 5th Dan Student of Nishio Sensei) I went around Los Angeles to several different Aikido Dojos and sadly most of the senior level instructors could not fight thier way out of a paper bag...I was one of those folks who had grown tired of fighting (My experiance is in Karate,Ju-Jitsu,and Judo)but I did not see the practicality behind most of the Aikido being taught...I feel that Aikido is Budo first and as such it should help the practicioner defend themselves against experianced attackers. Please I am not knocking other techniques... It's just got to work in the real world... Strangely enough I have spent the last 12 years learning Nishio Sensei's method of "not fighting". Peace

William Hazen
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