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Old 08-31-2001, 01:19 PM   #1
Fudo_Tai
Dojo: Spokane Budo Circle (Various Parks)
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 8
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Aikido's Strikes.

I've noticed alot of good things about Aikido training, however, one thing that is sorely lacking is the proper way to strike.

To me, this shows a lack of sincerety on the part of Uke, because Uke is not giving their partner the best training they can give - in a sense, they are cheating their partner out of a good practice.

It has always been my philosophy, if you're going to train, you better train to your fullest, and give your partner, your Dojo, and your teacher, your all - otherwise you are just doing glorified aerobics.

You completely miss the self-defense aspect, and thus, all the other great aspects of the chosen art are also thrown out the window too...
If you do not care about one set of techniques, then you probably do not care about any of them - thus, you do not care about the path you have chosen, nor what your teacher is teaching you.

Martial Practice is about observing the self's reaction processes in the most extreme situations - mainly because these situations bring out the truth about yourself, right to the surface, where you cannot deny it.

Further observation of these things helps to enable one to mold them into calm responses.

If one does not put out the effort on even a strike, or proper posture, then they miss this entire process of mindfulness training! They miss the entire process of learning!

Thoughts anyone??

~Dave.

D. C. Chapman,
The Spokane Budo Circle.
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Old 08-31-2001, 01:38 PM   #2
Brian Vickery
Dojo: Aiki-Buken Aikido
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
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Re: Aikido's Strikes.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fudo_Tai
I've noticed alot of good things about Aikido training, however, one thing that is sorely lacking is the proper way to strike.

If one does not put out the effort on even a strike, or proper posture, then they miss this entire process of mindfulness training! They miss the entire process of learning!

Thoughts anyone??

~Dave.
Hello Dave,

I agree that the standard shomenuchi/yokomenuchi/munetsuki are not what I'd consider 'true' strikes. But they are great training aids! It would be virtually impossilbe for someone to learn all the various techniques of aikido, if from day one of your training, you had someone trying to take your head off. Once the student can execute the techniques properly, then speed & strength are added to the strikes. Eventually the strikes become random, from any angle, looking more like true attack strikes, with the advanced student easily handling the attacks.

Well, at least that's how it progresses in the dojo where I train!

Regards,

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
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Old 08-31-2001, 04:51 PM   #3
Chuck Clark
 
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Brian, I agree that in the beginning stages of training the attack must fit the uke's ability to deal with it. As the skill improves so does the level of speed and power.

However, there are lots of aikidoka that I've seen that have very little to no real intent behind their attacks. Often, attacks are delivered with the intent that an aikido technique needs a "handle" to grab onto, etc.

There's a difference between delivering a committed attack with real intent that is slow and has reduced power for beginners and one of these "fake" attacks. The intent must be there for the proper lessons to be learned.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 08-31-2001, 07:10 PM   #4
michaelkvance
Dojo: Aikido Center of Los Angeles
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It always brings a smile to my face when a senior aikidoka says something along the lines of "No, really try to hit me. Don't worry, it's my fault if you actually connect."

Sincere practice warms the heart.

m.
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Old 08-31-2001, 10:07 PM   #5
Chuck Clark
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by michaelkvance
Sincere practice warms the heart.
Every breath we take is ONE LESS! Don't waste them after you've made a deliberate decision to practice budo. Full intent with focus. Every instant should be viewed as "life and death" because that's what it is.

Aikido practice is a system of desensitization and then resensitization.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 09-01-2001, 12:10 AM   #6
MJO
 
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[quote][i]Originally posted by Chuck Clark

"There's a difference between delivering a committed attack with real intent that is slow and has reduced power for beginners and one of these "fake" attacks. The intent must be there for the proper lessons to be learned."

Clark Sensei is right on. An attack must have real intent (especially, if it is delivered slowly) in order to perform a correct balance-break. If aikidokas are out there giving non-committed attacks, (perhaps they are giving bad attacks just to set up easy counters, or to act too much like a robot for beginners) then neither partner really benefits.

I feel a non-committed attack would be beneficial only if it was delivered intentially... (to see how an experienced aikidoka would be able to effectively respond and perform some sort-of-technique)

I guess you could compare it to a couple of "change-ups" rather than all "fast-balls."
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Old 09-01-2001, 11:01 AM   #7
Fudo_Tai
Dojo: Spokane Budo Circle (Various Parks)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Clark
Brian, I agree that in the beginning stages of training the attack must fit the uke's ability to deal with it. As the skill improves so does the level of speed and power.

However, there are lots of aikidoka that I've seen that have very little to no real intent behind their attacks. Often, attacks are delivered with the intent that an aikido technique needs a "handle" to grab onto, etc.

There's a difference between delivering a committed attack with real intent that is slow and has reduced power for beginners and one of these "fake" attacks. The intent must be there for the proper lessons to be learned.

Regards,
That is what I'm talking about! Intent! Not really speed, nor power, but intent!

I have not seen these 'fake' techniques in just beginners either, I've seen it in a whole range of different levels, from beginner, to the person teaching the class.

To me, it is okay to go slow, and soft, because one must slow down in order to see what they are doing more clearly... However, there is a huge difference between slowing down, and still trying to punch, and just giving your partner a handle to grab.

The latter really offers no real training.

~Dave.

D. C. Chapman,
The Spokane Budo Circle.
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Old 09-01-2001, 11:05 AM   #8
Fudo_Tai
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[quote]Originally posted by MJO
Quote:
[i]Originally posted by Chuck Clark

"There's a difference between delivering a committed attack with real intent that is slow and has reduced power for beginners and one of these "fake" attacks. The intent must be there for the proper lessons to be learned."

Clark Sensei is right on. An attack must have real intent (especially, if it is delivered slowly) in order to perform a correct balance-break. If aikidokas are out there giving non-committed attacks, (perhaps they are giving bad attacks just to set up easy counters, or to act too much like a robot for beginners) then neither partner really benefits.

I feel a non-committed attack would be beneficial only if it was delivered intentially... (to see how an experienced aikidoka would be able to effectively respond and perform some sort-of-technique)

I guess you could compare it to a couple of "change-ups" rather than all "fast-balls."
Even change ups have intent.

A curve ball is fully a curve ball.

While a golfer might change up their iron, they still intend to smack the ball into the hole.

The baseball pitcher still intends to strike the batter out.

Aikidoka should still intend to hit the target.

~Dave.

D. C. Chapman,
The Spokane Budo Circle.
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Old 09-01-2001, 11:39 AM   #9
Chuck Clark
 
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After many years of experience in both judo shiai,punching/kicking art, and aikibudo I think that "fakes", feints, or false attacks intended to be bait for traps do not work against the proper strategy.

If you break distance with a fake attack... THANK YOU!... because a properly trained budoka will answer with a REAL waza. I answer the intent and beginning of an attack, not the end form.

What many think of as "fakes" should really be real attacks that have possible alternatives "linked" to them in case the opponent successfuly changes the attack with their counter or evasion, etc.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 09-01-2001, 05:35 PM   #10
MJO
 
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[quote][i]Originally posted by Fudo_Tai


"Even change ups have intent.

A curve ball is fully a curve ball.

Aikidoka should still intend to hit the target."

Hello David,
I agree with you. As I had explained, a fake, but committed/intentional attack could be possibly used as a "change-up" to give the experienced tori/nage the ability to create waza from that type of attack. Just an "hypothetical" attempt, I guess. Personally, I would rather stick to committed attacks.

I would also feel the same frustration as you if my training partners gave only non-committed attacks. However, these type of attacks have made me aware of my own role as uke. This way, I can work towards correcting myself and provide some feedback if my partner continues to attack without intention. (or perhaps casually mentioning it to a senior or your instructor) The ukes may not even be aware of their lack of intention...

Either way, I still feel communication and positive feedback can help with those who deliver non-committed attacks.

Mike
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Old 09-02-2001, 12:45 PM   #11
Fudo_Tai
Dojo: Spokane Budo Circle (Various Parks)
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[quote]Originally posted by MJO
Quote:
[i]Originally posted by Fudo_Tai


"Even change ups have intent.

A curve ball is fully a curve ball.

Aikidoka should still intend to hit the target."

Hello David,
I agree with you. As I had explained, a fake, but committed/intentional attack could be possibly used as a "change-up" to give the experienced tori/nage the ability to create waza from that type of attack. Just an "hypothetical" attempt, I guess. Personally, I would rather stick to committed attacks.

I would also feel the same frustration as you if my training partners gave only non-committed attacks. However, these type of attacks have made me aware of my own role as uke. This way, I can work towards correcting myself and provide some feedback if my partner continues to attack without intention. (or perhaps casually mentioning it to a senior or your instructor) The ukes may not even be aware of their lack of intention...

Either way, I still feel communication and positive feedback can help with those who deliver non-committed attacks.

Mike
Totally,
Communication is what it is all about. When you bow to your dancing/Aikido/Whatever partner, you cannot expect to not communicate.

If your partner is not fully dancing, then bring your dancing down several notches so your partner notices.

~Dave.

D. C. Chapman,
The Spokane Budo Circle.
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Old 09-04-2001, 07:47 AM   #12
j0nharris
Dojo: Kododan Aikido USA
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We have found it helpful to increase the sincerity of uke's strikes by occasionally adding a toy baseball bat to the yokomenuchi.This is both a more realistic attack, and adds just enough sting if you miss it to let you know that you're technique is a bit off .

We also do some training with kicks, and different types of punches/knife strikes.
In a recent randori, sensei gave one uke a knife, one a short stick for yokomen, and the third was instructed to do grabs.

The weapons ended up changing hands some as nage took them away and tossed them aside, which pretty well kept us on our toes.

-jon

jon harris

Life is a journey...
Now, who took my @#$%! map?!
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