Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-23-2005, 07:19 AM   #26
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi to good Aikido

Perhaps the previous post applies to the poster...but it certainly doesn't represent my training...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2005, 08:40 AM   #27
MattRice
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Maryland
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 123
Offline
Re: Atemi to good Aikido

"where do I go to find the best elements for striking counters, can I learn them in an aikido school or I can only learn new ways to apply them in an aikido school". Not sure..."
This is more or less what I was speaking to. I don't think it has to be either/or though, just depends on where/who/how you train.

With respect to atemi not causing damage: the way I'm taught, sometimes atemi is leading the charge to your partner's center. If the atemi is not real (i.e. might cause damage if you let it hit you), is it really helping to take center?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2005, 08:54 AM   #28
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 463
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Atemi to good Aikido

Quote:
Matt Rice wrote:
With respect to atemi not causing damage: the way I'm taught, sometimes atemi is leading the charge to your partner's center. If the atemi is not real (i.e. might cause damage if you let it hit you), is it really helping to take center?
Imagine an open hand approaching your face at moderate speed: you might think this will not hurt me in anyway and won't move. Then a finger starts to target your eye, or the hand graps your throat. Now you reconsider and recoil. This also is atemi.
The threat must be real (in the eye of the receiver, ai-te), but need not to be realised when ai-te accepts the situation and allows you to continue. You work together.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2005, 09:20 AM   #29
MattRice
Dojo: Baltimore Aikido
Location: Maryland
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 123
Offline
Re: Atemi to good Aikido

Hi Tim:
sounds like we're talking about the same thing.

Matt
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2005, 01:49 PM   #30
Min Kang
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Arlington, Virginia
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 34
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi to good Aikido

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote:
Imagine an open hand approaching your face at moderate speed: you might think this will not hurt me in anyway and won't move. Then a finger starts to target your eye, or the hand graps your throat. Now you reconsider and recoil. This also is atemi.
The threat must be real (in the eye of the receiver, ai-te), but need not to be realised when ai-te accepts the situation and allows you to continue. You work together.
I may be misunderstanding you but I disagree: The only way the threat can be real in the eye of the receiver is if it IS real.

In your example, what happens if the ai-te does not react to your moderately approaching hand? Or reacts by punching you because he does not perceive your hand as a threat that is necessary to block or counter?

At my present level of understanding, Aikido IS atemi. Aikido is also what happens (technique) when the uke reacts to the atemi.

Uke and nage may work together, but it is from diametrically opposite points of view: Nage chooses to control rather than strike or harm; uke chooses to take ukemi rather than risk injury.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2005, 01:41 AM   #31
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 463
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Atemi to good Aikido

Quote:
Matt Rice wrote:
Hi Tim:
sounds like we're talking about the same thing.

Matt
That be good then In this discussion I got the feeling people wish to (or perhaps even do) make their punches more effective. To me that sounds like competition of some sort: get faster, get stronger, do more damage...

On the other hand, I do feel that an Aikidoka should at least know the basics about punching. And must admit this often does not get much attention (NOTE: by no means wish to generalise all styles!).
Allthough Aikido practice is stylized to say the least, it serves a purpose. It allows you to safely train shi-sei (attitude), ma-ai (timing/distance) and kino nagare (fluent movement).

When you take this stylized training to the next level (e.g. ai-te throws multiple punches) you immediately adopt your behavior which will typically result in randori.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2005, 02:55 AM   #32
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 463
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Atemi to good Aikido

Quote:
Min Kang wrote:
I may be misunderstanding you but I disagree: The only way the threat can be real in the eye of the receiver is if it IS real.
This would be shi-sei: attitude. It also (strongly) depends on whom you train with: is this person experienced or not? I hate to think what would happen to a beginner when confronted with a full-force attack. This would not be proper Aikido, IMHO.

Quote:
Min Kang wrote:
In your example, what happens if the ai-te does not react to your moderately approaching hand? Or reacts by punching you because he does not perceive your hand as a threat that is necessary to block or counter?
Then ai-te becomes uke and should be taught why he should respond. Perhaps the danger is not clear. It happens quite often that my hand is in somebody's face and they still do not react (assume you will not hurt them as this is not done in Aikido). Until you intend to poke their eyes. This behaviour is a side-effect of the stylized way of training and you should always keep this in mind.

Quote:
Min Kang wrote:
At my present level of understanding, Aikido IS atemi. Aikido is also what happens (technique) when the uke reacts to the atemi.

Uke and nage may work together, but it is from diametrically opposite points of view: Nage chooses to control rather than strike or harm; uke chooses to take ukemi rather than risk injury.
It is this last line that I tried to explain above. Once ai-te is aware of the danger he chooses safety. This is an important aspect of your Aikido training, at least I think so.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2005, 07:43 AM   #33
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi to good Aikido

A real attack is different than a full-force attack I think.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2005, 11:44 AM   #34
pezalinski
 
pezalinski's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Harvard (IL)
Location: harvard, IL
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 159
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi to good Aikido

"real vs. full-force...." I take it you mean,

a "real" committed attack where uke has a clear intent to cause you bodily harm if possible, or at least demonstrate how/where/when it could happen, continuously throughout varying circumstances

as opposed/contrasted to

a "full force" attack, telegraphed (if at all possible), where uke has committed him/herself to a single attack implemented at full-power and speed, irregardless of the cost to self or varying circumstances.

beginners use the second one, because it's usually all they understand; experienced aikidoka should (in my experience) be performing the first one -- even if it may LOOK like the second one, to observers.


A little danger is a knowledge thing...

"Helping the planet make an impact on people, since 1985"
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What exactly is an independent dojo? David Yap General 64 11-14-2011 02:05 PM
Steven Seagal Interview ad_adrian General 45 01-15-2010 03:34 PM
Baseline skillset eyrie Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1633 05-23-2008 01:35 PM
aikido and competition ewodaj General 129 08-10-2006 10:43 AM
atemi is 90% of Aikido Hagen Seibert General 217 10-12-2005 07:35 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:06 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate