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Old 07-23-2005, 08:23 AM   #26
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Jiawei Lee wrote:
Thank you for the reply. Perhaps like what Dustin suggested, I do need more experienced Aikidokas to do real life simulations with me to improve on my techniques. I suppose they would be more than happy to help out.
Yes, experienced and targeting for "real life" simulation. Many aikidoka, 'though experienced will deny to do so, but it is still all aikido.

Quote:
Jiawei Lee wrote:
So , as a sideline, is JO training close to Shinto Ryu Muso ? Well, I'm kind of thiking of joining this club and am kind of fascinated with the art
As far as I recall, O'sensei had trained Shinto Ryu Muso and took many of the techniques from them. And my google search supports this. So, yes, it might be a good idea.

Cheers Dirk
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Old 07-23-2005, 01:02 PM   #27
Ketsan
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
Please forgive me if I have sounded a little condecending, but I have seen a child (about 4'8" maybe 85 lbs and only 11 years old) preform that technique reliably on most of the people in our dojo smoothly enough that most of the adult males (around 200-230 lbs and 6' give or take 3 inches) like they were nothing without any gaps that needed atemi. I am just honestly perplexed about that statement.
Would anyone in the dojo feel right just standing there with an 11 year old clinging onto them trying to do a technique?
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Old 07-23-2005, 05:33 PM   #28
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

It was a little uncomfortable until we taught him to tenkan as he cuts, then suddenly you are down laughing that someone that small dropped you that easily.
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Old 07-23-2005, 07:07 PM   #29
wendyrowe
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
I hate to say it, but I think atemi is a rather bad thing to rely on to preform your techniques. IMHO if you can only remove balance through atemi then you don't know what you are doing and need to go back to basics... if you cannot do a technique to someone giving active resistance without using atemi then you might want to rethink what you are doing. Atemi create openings where there are none and finish uke when he cannot be reasoned with, they do not make the technique.
In TRADITIONAL AIKIDO (oh, how I wish I could find a copy of the set for myself!) Saito Sensei quotes O'Sensei as saying that "Atemi accounts for 99% of aikido." So it definitely sounds like something worth using. I agree, though, that one should learn the basics of the technique first -- to me, though, that's to make sure I understand the required positioning without the distraction of doing the atemi.
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Old 07-23-2005, 08:45 PM   #30
DustinAcuff
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

I guess that makes sense if you concider atemi any way to employ kuzushi. I am being taught to not strike since that was the way that K. Yonezawa taught my sensei, but we do make extensive use of cuts (which I am begining to believe that our cuts are quite diffrent from Aikido cuts), pressure points and pressure zones, and a number of intresting rotational motions to immedately break spinal alignment and therefore balance on uke. As I am being taught, atemi are strikes, specifically finishing strikes that are used only when your goal is to maim or kill uke. If our definitions of atemi are diffrent and yours includes all forms of cuts and the like then I can see where that would be completely true.

However I do not see any value in only being able to do your techniques after you have broken uke's nose or xiphoid process, which would fit more within my definition of atemi. That seems more than a little bit barbaric and overkill to me. I still stand behind my belief that if you cannot do your techniques without punching uke in the face then you need to practice alot more.
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Old 07-24-2005, 02:31 AM   #31
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

it's not necessary to hit uke, but to be able to do so that sets up the dynamic that allows aikido to work.

I can't tell you how many times I have worked with non-aikidoka and they don't get it. They can thrwart all your techniques by assumming away the atemi that is there. You almost have to really hit them in order for them to "get it"
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Old 07-24-2005, 05:26 PM   #32
Ketsan
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
However I do not see any value in only being able to do your techniques after you have broken uke's nose or xiphoid process, which would fit more within my definition of atemi. That seems more than a little bit barbaric and overkill to me. I still stand behind my belief that if you cannot do your techniques without punching uke in the face then you need to practice alot more.
The point is if you're really using the techniques you wont have an uke. Even if I was confident that my Aikido would bring down an opponent without atemi, he'd still get a smack or three. I don't know what he knows, I don't know how far he's willing to go and I don't know if he's carrying a weapon. It's safer for me to be fighting someone who's blinded, stunned, has breathing difficulties and is thinking about the smack he just got than it is for me to be fighting a fully functioning opponent. On top of that it makes bringing them down that much easier.
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Old 07-24-2005, 07:49 PM   #33
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Jiawei Lee wrote:
Weakness: kata dori ikkyo. Where the nage pulls back to take the atacker off balance and performs the lock. Wastes too much time and opens you up for an attack.
A simple tsuki or shomen tsuki or punch to the solar plexis would solve the issue. Unless of course the uke is literally charging at you and intends grab your collar.
Aikido is structured so that any given attack is answered not by one technique but as many as possible if not all of them. The reason should be obvious: If the first thing you try fails or is countered, you want as many other options as you want ready to go. So even if you don't favor kata dori ikkyo, it would be a good idea to keep it and as many other responses to kata dori (which, remember, is really the first half of a grab-and-strike combo) in your aresenal as possible. That includes the strikes, too; don't rule anything out.
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Old 07-25-2005, 04:59 AM   #34
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Guys, to supplement the discussion I like to introduce you to this article : http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=112

Maybe you have already read it .
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Old 07-25-2005, 05:02 AM   #35
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Why do we seem to separate atemi from aikido ? Did not O sensei incorporate it ? Surely its good enough a reason to see a need for it . Isn't it just a teenie arrogant to say "no" we don't need atemi ?
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Old 07-25-2005, 05:50 AM   #36
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Hello? What the heck is uke learning to do if not atemi?

Ignatius
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Old 07-25-2005, 10:53 AM   #37
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Jiawei Lee wrote:
Guys, to supplement the discussion I like to introduce you to this article : http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=112

Maybe you have already read it .
Nope, not until today. Crosstraining is probably the easiest thing to do. WRT his recommendations, easier said than done. You can devote a whole class to sutdying attacks and not even get to the counters. I know; I've seen that. And safety should always be a prime consideration. Full contact people already know how to do that stuff safely with a minimum of injury; if you don't know how to do that, don't try it.
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Old 07-25-2005, 02:25 PM   #38
Kent Enfield
 
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
As far as I recall, O'sensei had trained Shinto Ryu Muso and took many of the techniques from them. And my google search supports this.
Meik and Diane Skoss; both of whom have spent significant time training in aikido and Shinto Muso Ryu, as well as other arts; seem to disagree with that. Here is a thread over at e-budo, which at least used to be a wonderful place to ask such questions:

Origins of Aiki-jo

And for people unfamiliar with the Skosses, links to the website that Diane runs:

Koryu.com

And their M.A. C.V.:

Shutokukan Instructors

Kentokuseisei
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Old 07-25-2005, 03:00 PM   #39
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

And its Shinto Muso Ryu....

Ron

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Old 08-09-2005, 06:23 AM   #40
Jiawei
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Revaluation of Kata dori ikkyo : 1) As the uke is lunging foward to grab your lapel, you pull back diagonally. 2) Using the other (cutting) hand to pull him in the direction he is lunging to take his balance. 3) At this instance, you perform ikkyo.

Pulling back distracts the uke's ki or focus.

Been thinking of the principal the form was trying to illustrate. Thanks Ignatius !
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Old 08-09-2005, 06:30 AM   #41
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Zanshin- the harder the opponent comes the harder he will fall because I simply reflect his actions. I blend with him. Aikido isn't meant to deal with peace loving people, but really violent ones; no action = no action. Because I am the mirror of actions. Thus Aikido is really ineffective only around peace loving people. Our art is an art of peace.
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Old 08-09-2005, 12:42 PM   #42
DustinAcuff
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Jiawei great post. Not sure I agree with your zanshin definition, but that is irrelevant.

You are right on the money on Ikkyo. The instant the attack is launched the trajectory, duration, and power are already in place. The attacker already knows if he is going to pull back into a fighting stance or not. He also already knows where you are and where he is attacking. Getting off the line, or irimi, completely disrupts his attack on all fronts. Now mid attack the information he had whne he initiated the attack is no longer relavent so he has to go back to the drawing board. If you create an offset in his balance while his attack is comitted then he is screwed. His energy is already given and extened and until his attack is completed he cannot withdraw it. The cut/pull/offset is kinda like using a brick to hold a door open.
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Old 08-09-2005, 04:58 PM   #43
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Interesting discussion.

It may benefit from a listing or understanding of what the Aiki concepts are to begin with however. There is a lot of talk about waza, atemi etc., but to me these are external expressions of fundamental principles and concepts that make up an understanding of "Aiki" long before one even enters the physical expression of a particular technique.

Quote:
Go ahead and grab a decent judo guy, jiujitsu practioner...or even a novice in martial arts that does not play the aikido game...and you will find that things are difficult to perform on them. However, add in atemi/threat of it...and things change dramatically!
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, did not need atemi either (so far). They never knew what hit them and just sat there for a few minutes wondering what just happened. Judoka, Jujutsuka etc. tend to be very good scrappers and fighters, but when Aiki is used properly there is no fight, no struggle, only the right response to the situation. It's only limitation exists in the mind and body of the individual and the training methods employed to be able (or unable)to achieve these levels in the face of trained people. Often those who fail in the application of Aiki do so because they want to contest their attacker's force, iow they want to fight/struggle or they are so caught up/fettered by form that the formless nature of true Aiki totally evades them. If you try to fight a fighter who is better and more experienced at it than you are, then the resultant failure should be no mystery imho.

Just my 2 cents. Within each concept, element, strategy, tactic and principle there is so much to be learnt that can be applied in so many ways.

LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 08-09-2005 at 05:04 PM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 08-09-2005, 05:45 PM   #44
Jiawei
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Do symbol Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
Jiawei great post. Not sure I agree with your zanshin definition, but that is irrelevant.

You are right on the money on Ikkyo. The instant the attack is launched the trajectory, duration, and power are already in place. The attacker already knows if he is going to pull back into a fighting stance or not. He also already knows where you are and where he is attacking. Getting off the line, or irimi, completely disrupts his attack on all fronts. Now mid attack the information he had whne he initiated the attack is no longer relavent so he has to go back to the drawing board. If you create an offset in his balance while his attack is comitted then he is screwed. His energy is already given and extened and until his attack is completed he cannot withdraw it. The cut/pull/offset is kinda like using a brick to hold a door open.

I think Zanshin means to have a mind as calm as still waters so that you can get the true reflection of the "moon". If your mind is calm, it will be like a miror reflecting your opponent's every move accurately. If your mind is fearful, it is like water that ripples-your opponent's reflection is distorted and you will cause yourself harm.

Thus, if the people are peaceful, there is no action to "reflect" and thus no need to employ Aikido. Just me rambling......

Last edited by Jiawei : 08-09-2005 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 08-09-2005, 05:54 PM   #45
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Interesting discussion.

It may benefit from a listing or understanding of what the Aiki concepts are to begin with however. There is a lot of talk about waza, atemi etc., but to me these are external expressions of fundamental principles and concepts that make up an understanding of "Aiki" long before one even enters the physical expression of a particular technique.


Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, did not need atemi either (so far). They never knew what hit them and just sat there for a few minutes wondering what just happened. Judoka, Jujutsuka etc. tend to be very good scrappers and fighters, but when Aiki is used properly there is no fight, no struggle, only the right response to the situation. It's only limitation exists in the mind and body of the individual and the training methods employed to be able (or unable)to achieve these levels in the face of trained people. Often those who fail in the application of Aiki do so because they want to contest their attacker's force, iow they want to fight/struggle or they are so caught up/fettered by form that the formless nature of true Aiki totally evades them. If you try to fight a fighter who is better and more experienced at it than you are, then the resultant failure should be no mystery imho.

Just my 2 cents. Within each concept, element, strategy, tactic and principle there is so much to be learnt that can be applied in so many ways.

LC
YUPS!!
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Old 08-09-2005, 08:32 PM   #46
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

I always understood zanshin to be a state of hightened awarenes. The mirror analogy makes no sense to me. You and I may be talking about the same thing, maybe not...
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Old 08-09-2005, 08:34 PM   #47
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Yay! Someone else says aikido can be done without atemi! I'm soo happy!
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Old 08-11-2005, 12:40 AM   #48
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
Yay! Someone else says aikido can be done without atemi! I'm soo happy!
Hmm, can't say I agree with that. O sensei incorporated Atemi for a reason. I dont claim to know the specificities but maybe its not so good to do away with waht he wanted to include ? I mean he was "O" Sensei .
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Old 08-11-2005, 08:46 AM   #49
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

Quote:
Jiawei Lee wrote:
Hmm, can't say I agree with that. O sensei incorporated Atemi for a reason. I dont claim to know the specificities but maybe its not so good to do away with waht he wanted to include ? I mean he was "O" Sensei .
Being able to execute effective waza without Atemi does not mean that one eliminates Atemi from one's practice, only that one also develops the other elements that make Aiki waza effective. Too often Aikidoka appear to believe that Atemi is the be all and end all of effective waza, it isn't. Atemi is only one element of many that are important to quality Aiki waza.

Maybe this thread will be of help - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5313 .

Gambatte.
LC

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Old 08-11-2005, 08:54 PM   #50
ikkitosennomusha
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Re: Aiki concepts : strengths and weaknesses

This may have already been mentioned but everything Aiki is a strength and the weakness is not in the art but perhaps in the aikidoka or the methodology of the sensei. To be clear, I am not calling anyone out here, its just a mere statistic and observation.

I have read Shihan and O-sensei talking about the very nature of training. In their discussion they convey the importance of intent. To outline this further, they are specifically talking about uke's intent to attack. It must be real and intense to simulate real life. It is possible to have this sort of enviroment and still maintain a controlled atmosphere because after the attack, nage is/should be in full control. Nage must match the speed and intensity of uke but after that, nage can slow it down to a safe tone and take control.

More real attacks was the one thing I strived for at a former place of training as the attacks were dorsal and sluggish. It is simply impossible to train under these conditions and learn the nature of Aikido.
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