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Old 07-07-2005, 07:17 PM   #26
nelsonhomer
Dojo: Kiryukan Dojo(formerly Takemusu Hidaka)
Location: Obando Bulacan
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

@threadstarter

just fall where you feel you'll be safe. loosen up and relax your body when doing ukemi and you'll go far.
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Old 07-07-2005, 08:32 PM   #27
Jeanne Shepard
 
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Hello Steve,

I can understand some instructors space out ukemi teaching. I have two students who are 2nd kyu, who have not yet practised ukemi from koshi waza. However, they can easily take mae ukemi with arms folded, or holding obi, or held, as in kote gaeshi.

Here is a very basic exercise (you need a partner). Stand in ai hanmi and grip wrists in a double katate-dori. You grip your partner's wrists; your partner grips yours. Your partner initially throws you by turning in the direction of the throw and leading you down to the mat and you roll, using the arm being held, which you roll over. It is very important that (1) your partner throws you; you do not throw yourself and (2) you do not use the other arm at all.

Once you have got used to this, your partner can initiate the ukemi at a progressively higher level and also pull you up, after you have started to roll. In this case the roll becomes a break fall.

Best regards,

PS. Of course, if you come down to Hiroshima, I can show you personally!

Can I come down and learn this too?!!

Jeanne
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Old 07-08-2005, 12:29 AM   #28
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

I have a couple of additional thoughts in addition to all the great advice you have already got. These are points I use when I teach (mainly because they help me):

1. You are safer in the air. Get high...don't aim for the mat even though we all know that gravity is going to get you there eventually.

2. Make your body long ... stretch the bag leg out as long as you can and keep it high and pointing to the ceiling when your other foot (the short leg) is still on the mat. That slows down the rotation.

3. Keep your head tucked until you are standing again...hitting the head is bad.

4. Reach to touch the floor with your hand that is free...but do it by pushing your free arm back as far as it will go behind the body so that your shoulder locks it and then when you hit with your hand the shoulder releases like a spring....to slow the end of the flip down. The hand is the first thing to hit the mat...that slows you down by using the arm slapping and then the short foot right underneath you.

5. Your long leg should be sideways so that you don't smash your heel on the ground...if that foot hits at all it should be on the side.

6. Try and go in a straight line over your own forearm

7. There is no seven.

8. DO THIS UNDER SUPERVISION WITH SOMEONE AT YOUR DOJO. They can help by supporting your neck the first couple of times you go over or by demonstrating as many times as you need them to...

And remember...it takes longer for some people than for others. Be careful and work with someone who can help you...

Good luck,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 07-08-2005, 01:57 AM   #29
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Quote:
Jeanne Shepard wrote:
Can I come down and learn this too?!!

Jeanne
Of course. If you are ever in this part of the world, you are welcome to come and train. My two instructor colleagues have trained with Shoji Nishio, so we have a certain breadth of experience here.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
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Old 07-08-2005, 04:15 AM   #30
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Hi Steven,

You didn't say whether you are currently in Tokyo or London, but I would suggest that when you are back in London you just ask Ken or Linda to help you!

These things are very difficult to explain without demonstration, as many have already pointed out.

Alex
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Old 07-08-2005, 07:25 AM   #31
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote:
Hi Steven,

You didn't say whether you are currently in Tokyo or London, but I would suggest that when you are back in London you just ask Ken or Linda to help you!

These things are very difficult to explain without demonstration, as many have already pointed out.

Alex
Hello Alex,

From your mail I gather that Steven is in a BAF-affiliated dojo in the UK. This was not clear from his initial posting.

Since I am a life member of the BAF (I have the dark green booklet sent to me by your father), this is all the more reason why he should make a visit to Hiroshima...

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
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Old 07-08-2005, 11:44 AM   #32
Steven Tame
Dojo: Hombu Aikikai /North London Aikido Dojo
Location: Tokyo , Japan
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Quote:
Robert Rumpf wrote:
You should probably learn to do the following first:
- Take a forward roll
- Take a forward roll over a jo on the mat
- Take a forward roll over a partner lying down, and/or on hands and knees
- Take a forward roll without using any hands (off the shoulder)


Rob
Thanks Robert I tried these out today. The first three are no problem although I can definately tell that my right (rolling off of my right hand) is a bit worse than my left side.

The last one will take a bit of practice... an instructor at a dojo which will remain un-named made me try this when I was still learning mae-ukemi and I damaged my shoulder quite badly and had to take a one month break from training. I'll give it a go next time though.
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Old 07-08-2005, 11:53 AM   #33
Steven Tame
Dojo: Hombu Aikikai /North London Aikido Dojo
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Sorry for the confusion about my location guys. When I am in England I usually train at North London Aikido Dojo but now is my summer vacation so I took an AIKIDO holiday to Japan and am currently training at Hombu Dojo in Tokyo. I should be back before summer school but doubt I'll be able to attend due to personal matters.
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Old 07-08-2005, 12:11 PM   #34
Adam Huss
 
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Sounds like a good Yoshinkan style ukemi! Brings back memories of my time with a Yoshinkan dojo...man did my break falls ever change in the time I was there.
If I may add a small suggestion that I found helped me (if not quite critical to the survival of my ankles!)...in Mr. Stuempel's tip #5, I found that it helps to mentally and physically prepare your straight leg for hitting the mat by pulling the toes toward your own head, as in mae geri (front kick) fashion. This flexes the calf muscle and provides some muscular bounce, instead of ankular bounce . But we had really hard mats, they don't make them anymore, so just the landing part...even if the ankles aren't hitting each other, is still a bit unpleasant if your ankle accidentally flops on the mat.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 07-08-2005, 12:17 PM   #35
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

hmmph, its not my ankles I worry about when it comes to 'flopping'...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-08-2005, 01:49 PM   #36
Robert Rumpf
Dojo: Academy of Zen and the Ways
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Quote:
The last one will take a bit of practice... an instructor at a dojo which will remain un-named made me try this when I was still learning mae-ukemi and I damaged my shoulder quite badly and had to take a one month break from training. I'll give it a go next time though.
Ouch.. I too jammed my shoulder at one point doing a roll off the shoulder (when I didn't expect to), so I can sympathize. It put me out of class for a while until the injury went away, and it was some time after that that I regained my confidence in my ability to take ukemi.

All I can recommend from the perspective of making those types of shoulder-oriented rolls easier is giving yourself more forward momentum and trying to extend your rolls out in front like you are skipping off the map like a stone off water. Start with your shoulder lower to the ground, too, so it is moving more horizontal and less vertical. In that way you are colliding less and so less likely to get stuck.

Some people also find it helpful to go all the way down to on hands and knees, virtually laying on one side and resting on their front shoulder, and then pushing off at that point. The roll starts with the shoulder as connected to the ground as possible (but not colliding with it).

In this way you've bypassed the portion of the roll that would take in your forearm and hand, so you can get used to the sensation of having your shoulder hold that structure up front. Depending on your flexibility and skills though, this can be rough on your head and neck, and should probably be seen before it is tried.

Eventually, it is useful to do be able to do forward rolls with your hands tucked into your gi or hakama at your side (not in front or behind!). In this way it removes the temptation to use anything else besides your shoulders and back when taking falls.. That way you are not scared when breakfalls remove the use of your hand(s).

Good luck, and make sure you've got some supervision and soft mats.
Rob
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Old 07-08-2005, 10:53 PM   #37
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

And most importantly, don't wear boxers. (For guys). Don't go commando either.

Can't resist mentioning that, since I've had enough experience of it.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 07-09-2005, 02:35 AM   #38
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
Location: Tokyo
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote:
And most importantly, don't wear boxers. (For guys). Don't go commando either.

Can't resist mentioning that, since I've had enough experience of it.
Completely disagree

Actually only half disagree. Don't wear boxers. Agreed.

Go commando! I gotta tell you when I first came to Japan the foreign instructors told me I should go commando and I just ignored them until one of them said something like "Seriously. This is good advice" so I tried it...definately an improvement. Comfortable, cool, refreshing...all good.

In 12 years I have only mislanded twice...by the same technique by the same person twice in a row during regular training. He was just really good at getting me flying parallel above the mat and then driving me straight down. I don't think anything would have saved me then <wince>

Ah...the good times...

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 07-09-2005, 03:57 PM   #39
Adam Alexander
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Nice, very nice. LOL.

I think I'd feel a little queezy if you weren't wearing some very thick pants.

I'm a fan of training in boxers. I've always done it except for a brief time when I wore...drumroll....briefs.
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Old 07-10-2005, 05:43 AM   #40
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Heard in the pub after practice last week:

"Boxers are underwear for men who can't choose."


kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 07-10-2005, 08:09 AM   #41
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
Hello Steve,

I can understand some instructors space out ukemi teaching. I have two students who are 2nd kyu, who have not yet practised ukemi from koshi waza. However, they can easily take mae ukemi with arms folded, or holding obi, or held, as in kote gaeshi.

Here is a very basic exercise (you need a partner). Stand in ai hanmi and grip wrists in a double katate-dori. You grip your partner's wrists; your partner grips yours. Your partner initially throws you by turning in the direction of the throw and leading you down to the mat and you roll, using the arm being held, which you roll over. It is very important that (1) your partner throws you; you do not throw yourself and (2) you do not use the other arm at all.

Once you have got used to this, your partner can initiate the ukemi at a progressively higher level and also pull you up, after you have started to roll. In this case the roll becomes a break fall.
Hi Steve,

I understand your problem... One difficulty about training at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo is the lack of space... A couple of senpais told me directly not to do tobu ukemi (flying breakfall) because of the crowd... As a result, due to lack of practice, my breakfalls became worse... Because many people at Hombu also trained at their home dojos, they had more opportunity to polish their breakfalls

I once saw the type of ukemi practice described by Mr Goldsbury after an evening class between a Japanese yudansha and a kyu grade. I think Akiyama san gave some good advice about asking a foreign yudansha for help.

I've found several types of solo practice to be helpful:
1) Doing mae ukemi, but instead of extending your arm, do a scooping motion, so that your arm is under your body. This makes it a near shoulder roll and helps one get used to the ending position of a breakfall.
2) Doing mae ukemi after running a short distance - i.e. Run a short distance, do a shomeunchi/yokomenuchi and then naturally forward roll... this helps one get used to kokyu nage techniques from shomenuchi/yokomenuchi
3) Doing a breakfall on your own - this helps you check your landing technique, although it can be painful There's a superb thread on soft breakfalls here http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...ght=suwariwaza

I left Japan recently, and faced the exact same problem you are having. I am still working on my breakfalls, but for me the real answer is to get lots of practice. Thus, whenever my current Sensei demonstrates a technique which can involve a breakfall, I always try to grab a partner who is also into doing breakfalls. It also helps that we are using judo mats instead of the hard tatami that one finds at Hombu Dojo

ps I hope you are enjoying your practice... Some of my fondest memories of Japan stem from my training at the Dojo. Good luck!
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Old 07-10-2005, 11:03 AM   #42
Steven Tame
Dojo: Hombu Aikikai /North London Aikido Dojo
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Hi kokyu, I can definately see the problem with doing the tobu-ukemi in the regular class because as you said it is usually crowded and not practical. However when the teacher demonstrates kote-gaeshi, sumi otoshi etc. the uke usually takes the flying ukemi. I was told that I will need to know it when grading for shodan as people will expect that I know it at that stage.

I've been trying various things like taking the whole ukemi by myself which feels most comfortable

with a partner holding me with the kote-gaeshi grip and then taking the ukemi, the landing is a bit rougher on this one

haven't been brave enough to receive a full-kote gaeshi yet >.<

The training here has been really great.... unfortunately I'll be leaving next week but I'm planning to come back next summer vacation for some more training and hopefully pass my ikkyu test.

By the way what is going commando?
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Old 07-10-2005, 02:29 PM   #43
aikigirl10
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Going commando is no underwear
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Old 07-21-2005, 10:16 PM   #44
eyrie
 
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Advanced ukemi like basic ukemi - receive with the body, feel the movement, move from center, go with flow, only "advanced" means doing it "better" than "basic",

Ignatius
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Old 07-22-2005, 03:30 AM   #45
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
Completely disagree


In 12 years I have only mislanded twice...by the same technique by the same person twice in a row during regular training. He was just really good at getting me flying parallel above the mat and then driving me straight down. I don't think anything would have saved me then <wince>

Ah...the good times...

--Michael
Ah the pain... no thank you. I wanna have kids sometime in the future.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 07-22-2005, 04:02 AM   #46
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote:
Ah the pain... no thank you. I wanna have kids sometime in the future.
Ha!

I actually did father two kids after that...so not a problem...if that is your only concern

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 07-22-2005, 04:43 AM   #47
Devon Natario
 
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

I did some quick research and found a place that has multiple pictures showing you step by step how to do a hard fall.

Check this link out.

http://www.ittendojo.org/articles/aerial.htm

Devon Natario
Instructor
Northwest Jujitsu
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Old 08-08-2005, 10:59 AM   #48
Camille Lore
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Re: Advanced Ukemi

Thanks for that link! I was looking for something to help my forward breakfalls. I didn't know about kicking the rear leg upward. I seem to be able to do them ok in the dojo, but at home I tried them this morning and gave myself a headache! I can do yoko-jakati (side breakfalls) fine on my own, but I can't seem to get the momentum going with the mae-jakati. Have to read and reread that link to see if I can get it down. I'm only a gokyu, btw. Our dojo does breakfalls pretty much right away, as long as the doka is comfortable with them....
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