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Old 08-01-2005, 06:44 PM   #26
Adam Alexander
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

Sure, sure. But you get what I'm saying.
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Old 08-01-2005, 11:56 PM   #27
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
Or Ueshiba sensei breaking both arms of one boxer, "Piston Horiguchi" I think, with a strong atemi.

Yeah...for real dude...where'd you hear that? Is there an article or do you know the whole story from the top of your head well enough to share it with us? If so....how accurate is it of a story? It sounds sweet...you have to tell me more!
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Old 08-02-2005, 01:58 AM   #28
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
Aikido is a martial art, despite a few dumb threads that state otherwise, so pick up a chair and smash his arms with it - that's what all the bokken practice is for - and if he's still keen after that, whack him on the head with it.
Rupert and I are in total agreement with this statement, Aikido training is not combat! Look it up in websters if you need to! Fighting is not what we practice in the dojo. If we did we would soon run out of training partners. I am not saying aikido cannot be used for combat but your training(most training) will not prepare you mentally to make the decision to "take out" your opponent. You will develop the skills to do it, but the mental training is not there. If you want AIkido to work in "the world"you have to decdide to make it work by loosing the "defensive"mindset cultivated in our training. The techniques of Aikido are very powerful and effective but if you think with a defensive mind you will not completely apply them and you will be defeated because you "what if'ed"the whole thing. All I can say is trust that your technique is good, step in and apply it and make it work. If you do this your technique will work. If you hesitate and don't believe, you will be defeated. In order to apply what we learn in the dojo we must know, without a shadow of a doubt "when I do this my opponent will respond like this" and if he doesn't so what go to the next thing. The point is to commit to every single movement because God knows your attacker will. Don't play the stepladder game. I learned a long time ago that if I was going to really stop others from testing me I had to go all the way the first time. I mean commiting to neutralizing the person now!- the first time. It is really just a state of mind. I guess what I am trying to say is if you want to avoid the wells and ifs just commit to doing Aikido the first time you get the chance and don't feel bad about throwing and pinning anyone. Aikido will work every time.
As always, just my opinion,
Jason Mokry

Last edited by sutemaker17 : 08-02-2005 at 02:01 AM.
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Old 08-02-2005, 07:01 AM   #29
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

Quote:
Yeah...for real dude...where'd you hear that? Is there an article or do you know the whole story from the top of your head well enough to share it with us? If so....how accurate is it of a story? It sounds sweet...you have to tell me more!
I am pretty sure that there is at least mention of this incident in "Abundant Peace," by John Stevens. I only recall it and what book it was mentioned in because at the time when I read it, that episode shattered certain illusions I had had about Aikido and O'Sensei. Unfortunately, I don't have the book near me to verify it.

Rob
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Old 08-02-2005, 12:11 PM   #30
Adam Alexander
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

In "Aikido Shugyo" there's one about Shioda and a boxer (he goes for an all-direction and then hears "snap").

I think in the same book he says that of all artists, boxers are some of the more dangerous. (this is totally my interpretation--I pretty sure it doesn't say that specifically.)
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Old 08-02-2005, 12:52 PM   #31
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

Wow...I have to check out that book! Sounds sweet!
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Old 08-02-2005, 02:50 PM   #32
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

I just have seen a Lightwelter fight (boxing, of course) with perfect aikido.
No, no iriminage or ikkyu. But during the fight one of the opponents did suddenly seem to blend with the other one (well it might be a normal pendle move, but looked great) and was suddenly standing in ura position. As it was a boxing fight, he had to continue with punches, but the first three of them hit unprotected.

Unfortunately I have no slow motion to verify. The boxer seems to be called Ahmed Casamayor, if someone knows him. I do not know when the fight was, it is just running on Eurosports.

Have A Nice Day

Dirk
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Old 08-02-2005, 03:33 PM   #33
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

Casamayor is excellent. Usually in boxing if you slip behind your opponant the ref will stop the action, I believe.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-02-2005, 10:33 PM   #34
kelvinyu
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this situation? Is there a way to draw a fuller attack from the other person, perhaps using atemi or another idea? If someone is in a very stable boxing stance, is there a simple way to take his/her balance?

Hi Peter,

Always go back to first principles. Think carefully about what is aikido's preferred strategy for combat.

As a throwing art, aikido pays a lot of attention to the breaking of balance. But it is in the "how", that is differs from say, Judo. I.e You prefer to use an opponent's momentum to help break his balance, rather than physically pull/push him.

But the question is, at what point ?

Aikido pays special importance to the concept of miai, or correct distance between 2 person. If a boxer (or whatever martial art), is in a stable (or fighting or whatever) stance, the fact that you maintain correct miai means that he cannot reach any part of you with his feet or hands, without committing himself to take another step towards you.

It is only in his attempt to reach you, when he breaks miai, that he breaks his balance "on his own accord" ! (In a related way, there is no first attack in karate.). At this point, you use tai-sabaki, either irimi or tenkan, to move off his line of attack, blend with his momentum, and then apply an appropriate technique on him.

What if he does not break miai ? - Well, if both parties do NOT break miai, then you are left with no attacks initiated. Harmony.

What technique, or why does shiho nage fail ? - You cannot choose a technique in advance. Depending on his forward speed, his angle of attack towards you, what he choose to attack you with, you have to match with an appropriate technique - which may or may not be shiho nage.

Hope the above helps.

Kelvin
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Old 08-03-2005, 12:36 AM   #35
xuzen
 
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Re: Aikido vs. someone using a boxing style?

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
In "Aikido Shugyo" there's one about Shioda and a boxer (he goes for an all-direction and then hears "snap").

I think in the same book he says that of all artists, boxers are some of the more dangerous. (this is totally my interpretation--I pretty sure it doesn't say that specifically.)
It was during the formative year of the Yoshinkai dojo, when Kancho Shioda had to tour the American GI camp to promote aikido the art. One GI challenged Shioda and readied himself in the typical boxing stance. Earlier this formidable opponent had already KO one of Kancho Shioda's brother in art.

When the American GI threw a left jab, Kancho dive in straight for the right had, did a tenkan and executed modified shihonage (read: Kick-ass type jutsu variant). Mr Boxer elbow had a dull snap and the rest is history.

Kancho Shioda did mention that Boxer are formidable opponent because in the course of their training they spar and they spar a lot. Therefore they are adept at fighting.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 08-03-2005, 12:51 AM   #36
mansour
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

slap the hands of the boxer as he does fake jabs.slap hard. defense is ofense. and dont stay static.move around. the pain on his hands will increase and he will make a committed punch.grab.tackle.and what not.... also use atemis.. and also be ready to grapple on the ground (ne waza)if it gets to that.
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Old 08-03-2005, 01:18 AM   #37
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

i did boxing for 7 years
let me tell you
boxing can sure make you take a punch and it can make you punch and dodge punches very good
but once someone gets you in a lock (of course someone experianced and very good in aikido) there's no way a boxer can get out of it
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Old 08-03-2005, 01:28 AM   #38
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Casamayor is excellent. Usually in boxing if you slip behind your opponant the ref will stop the action, I believe.

Best,
Ron
Well, I thought so. But the referee did not. probably as casamayor punched only to the front side of the opponant, although standing behind. And it took about three punches to make the opponant (from Kazakhstan, I guess) turn round and protect himself again.

Dirk
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Old 08-03-2005, 03:19 AM   #39
Nick Simpson
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

' Does anyone have any thoughts on this situation? Is there a way to draw a fuller attack from the other person, perhaps using atemi or another idea? If someone is in a very stable boxing stance, is there a simple way to take his/her balance? '

Spit in there face. That should draw a fierce attack from them if nothing else like name calling does.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 08-03-2005, 10:38 AM   #40
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

Quote:
It is only in his attempt to reach you, when he breaks miai, that he breaks his balance "on his own accord" ! (In a related way, there is no first attack in karate.).
Uh uh...nope...boxers use a shuffle movement to move forward...they don't lunge. He won't break his balance on a shuffle shuffle jab cross combination. He'll just hit you...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-03-2005, 02:17 PM   #41
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

Quote:
Alan M. Rodriguez wrote:
Yeah...for real dude...where'd you hear that? Is there an article or do you know the whole story from the top of your head well enough to share it with us? If so....how accurate is it of a story? It sounds sweet...you have to tell me more!
I read it on page 19 of the Spiritual Foundations of Aikido by William Gleason.

Quote:

Here is an episode taken from George Ohsawa's Art of Peace.

The famous boxeing champion Horiguchi, "the Piston" came one day to the masters dojo and requested a match. The master invited him to attack with all his power and ability. The boxer attacked violently, crashing continuous blows against the chest of teh master, who suddenly countered by striking both of the boxers arms from the outside with his two hands. It was a single flexible, almost invisible strike. Horiguchi fell to the ground with two broken arms and spent two months in the hospital.


That's as much as I have, I haven't read the book by George Ohsawa.

rgds

Bryan

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Old 08-03-2005, 03:37 PM   #42
Sanshouaikikai
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
I read it on page 19 of the Spiritual Foundations of Aikido by William Gleason.

Quote:

Here is an episode taken from George Ohsawa's Art of Peace.

The famous boxeing champion Horiguchi, "the Piston" came one day to the masters dojo and requested a match. The master invited him to attack with all his power and ability. The boxer attacked violently, crashing continuous blows against the chest of teh master, who suddenly countered by striking both of the boxers arms from the outside with his two hands. It was a single flexible, almost invisible strike. Horiguchi fell to the ground with two broken arms and spent two months in the hospital.


That's as much as I have, I haven't read the book by George Ohsawa.

rgds

Bryan

Wow.
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Old 08-03-2005, 06:12 PM   #43
Amassus
 
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

I think there are a few factors to take into account in the original question.
First, you were sparring with a friend and second, as already mentioned, you were sparring.

I know that if I am sparring with a mate that I will not try and take his head off nor will I apply a fully committed attack that may break or injure joints. Hell, the guy may not know how to react to a lock in a way that will prevent damage. Its just too risky.

The other point about sparring, this has been covered quite well. Sparring is not combat. It is playing, ok, it can be serious playing, but its playing all the same. There are unwritten rules in place. Its not all-out generally.

Trust in your training and don't be too hard on yourself after only one year of aikido training. When the body knows, it will know. Until then, train ya heart out.

"flows like water, reflects like a mirror, and responds like an echo." Chaung-tse
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Old 08-05-2005, 04:39 AM   #44
kelvinyu
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

[quote]
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Uh uh...nope...boxers use a shuffle movement to move forward...they don't lunge. He won't break his balance on a shuffle shuffle jab cross combination. He'll just hit you...
Yes, but aikidoka can also move. Two fighters (of whatever styles) will always move, to angle for best position. It depends on who has the superior sense of timing, distance and rythmn.

Assuming the aikidoka has, through training, managed to develop this sense of miai, then he should be able to manouveur successfully in response to shuffles, lunges, or what have you.

Even if the boxer has good stance and power, staying even "one inch" out his reach will dissolve the power of his attack. It is during the boxer's attempt to close that "one more inch"..., that balance will be lost, and an opportunity to counter will present itself.

Also, I believe that unbalancing applies to more than just the physical realm. Suki can also be obtained from a mental weakness or unbalance. I.e When he is angry, distracted, or if you fake him out with an atemi action to generate a reaction, only to place himself right where he needs to be thrown by you etc.

Last edited by kelvinyu : 08-05-2005 at 04:49 AM.
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Old 08-05-2005, 07:58 AM   #45
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

Sure anyone can move...a toddler can move. But boxers don't fight (real fights, too) extended. Get in a ring with one sometime...you'll very quickly find this out.

I'm not saying that there aren't things (many of them) that someone can use from aikido training sucessfully. I am saying that if you expect someone trained in shuffling style attacks that include jabs, hooks and crosses to become magically unbalanced simply because you change the distance...well, the first time you try it, there's going to be an awakening.

Many fighters don't just magically lose their balance because they attack. Or their temper either. I hear too often that people think the nature of an attack from a skilled fighter is automatically unbalanced.

It just ain't so.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-05-2005, 10:25 AM   #46
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

First, have you asked your sensei for help?

Second, if you are trying to do something to your opponent (i.e. trying to pull off some aikido techniques) you'll probably find that aikido is not the right tool box. If you are trying to resolve a conflict, then you will have tools to work with.

Third, I wouldn't recommend staying in front of a boxer and "slapping hands" because I don't think you'll have much fun.
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Old 08-05-2005, 12:05 PM   #47
Nick Simpson
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

Try going backwards or to the side when a boxer is striking you to keep out of their distance and/or unbalance them.

Then shake the concussion out of your head and realise you just got hit 5 times or so in the face.

Irimi seems to work better for me.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 08-05-2005, 12:29 PM   #48
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

What ever you do, irimi has to be the basis. Small evasions back or side will allow a boxer to readjust and move forward without consequences. If you enter and force them to turn, you have good openings to work with. Same with karateka; enter and force them to turn.

The problem is, good karateka and average boxers are used to cutting off entry. They don't "let" you behind them, you have to make it happen. Not always easy. One of my teachers always stressed things like getting behind and making them turn and going for the back hand. These methods seem to work well, especially if you get uke turning. 'Course, you could also get caught with a hook!
Ron

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Old 08-05-2005, 05:27 PM   #49
Nick Simpson
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

I managed to irimi directly into the boxer somehow, cant remember, was drunk, and unbalanced him with a body check/atemi type manoeover i spose. He went down and i pinned him on the floor via a knee on his throat. I subsequently got pulled off him for hitting im in the face. No one told me you cant strike when their down in boxing...

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 08-05-2005, 05:45 PM   #50
Ketsan
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Re: Aikdio vs. someone using a boxing style?

Back foot irime tenkan is something I find useful when sparring, especially if you keep really close to them. Punch in the ribs as you're entering helps too.
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