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Old 06-12-2005, 03:33 PM   #101
bryce_montgomery
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
...Ask Saotome sensei sometime why he moved to the U.S....
It had something to do with a "melting pot" didn't it?...

Anyway, IMHO with all do respect to BJJers/GJJers (whichever you prefer) that that style is not the best...and actually that no style is the best. If there was a style that was the best, and I'll quote my karate instructor on this, "If there was a best style, then no one would be teaching any other style...they'd be teaching the best style."

Every martial art brings something to the table and offers its' own pros and cons.


Bryce
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Old 06-12-2005, 04:50 PM   #102
aikigirl10
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

i should correct myself

I didnt mean to make it sound like there was only one good style out there, i just meant to say that BJJ is no better (from what i have seen) then any other style.
sorry for the confusion
-paige
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Old 06-12-2005, 04:52 PM   #103
aikigirl10
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Good point about the melting pot , Bryce.
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Old 06-13-2005, 07:02 AM   #104
wendyrowe
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
While the aikido you and I are familiar with don't find ground fighitng involved...it is not that unlikely that an aikido sensei with ground fighitng skills could not integrate this into aikido, and still be within the realm of aikido.
You probably figured you'd be hearing from me on this one, Kevin. Yes, an aikido sensei with ground fighting skills can most definitely teach groundfighting that uses aiki techniques. He doesn't have to start from scratch, though, because there are old Ueshiba Japanese books and pictures that show O'Sensei doing groundwork, such as these up on aikidog -- I particularly like his smile in the second picture:

http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikid...ic&p=1119#1119

It seems to me that someone can get reasonably good at BJJ in a relatively short time (a year or two) and that it takes longer if you're starting from scratch to be able to apply aikido effectively against BJJ and accomplished wrestlers. Someone with a strong aikido background should be able to learn to apply it in groundwork without too much trouble, though.

I've seen Jason DeLucia sensei use aikido successfully against BJJ and he's been teaching us how to do so keeping to the very upright posture that's key to aikido rather than joining our opponent in the more leaning, curled or sprawled BJJ/wrestling postures. You can get an idea of what I mean from this aikidog.com "Getting out of guard" video clip from one of our classes:

http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikid...op=show&pid=91
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Old 06-13-2005, 07:58 AM   #105
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

cool. I used to think I could get good in a year or two with BJJ until I sparred with some high purple belts and worked out with a black belt, Roberto Traven, they take it to a whole nother level! It is amazing.

Looks like the stuff that Jason Delucia is doing is awesome. Would love to be able to experience it.

I am finding that it is true, that my aikido background is allowing me to learn ground work faster. I am probably a high white belt in about 8 months of training. Maybe getting close to Blue, but not having consistent instruction from a black belt and other ranked students it is hard to tell.

Aikido definitely is not a hinderance, as was my karate was in learning aikido.
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Old 06-13-2005, 07:59 AM   #106
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Paige, I understood that you meant that BJJ was not the best! Just having a little fun! There are no "best" martial arts, only ones that are better than others for a given situation and training objective. Right tool for the job!
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Old 06-29-2005, 01:41 PM   #107
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
"If there was a best style, then no one would be teaching any other style...they'd be teaching the best style."
Well....if that were the case and everyone was teaching the best style....I would come up with a style that would counter the best style...then my style will be the best (until someone tries and counters it successfully, lol)!!!! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-07-2005, 09:28 AM   #108
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
It seems to me that someone can get reasonably good at BJJ in a relatively short time (a year or two) and that it takes longer if you're starting from scratch to be able to apply aikido effectively against BJJ and accomplished wrestlers. Someone with a strong aikido background should be able to learn to apply it in groundwork without too much trouble, though.

I've seen Jason DeLucia sensei use aikido successfully against BJJ and he's been teaching us how to do so keeping to the very upright posture that's key to aikido rather than joining our opponent in the more leaning, curled or sprawled BJJ/wrestling postures. You can get an idea of what I mean from this aikidog.com "Getting out of guard" video clip from one of our classes:
i know the above is your opinion but in a good dojo you don't even make blue (1st belt after white) until a year or two has passed, if you talked to someone and they say you can be a master in a year they are a "Mcdojo" and are full of it.

and your video of that guy passing the guard HORRIBLE!!!!!!!
1st if you pass like that head control
2nd there are way better ways to pass than that
3rd it is easily swept by under hooking the ankles and pulling while bucking forward with the hips so know your friend is on his back what next aikido folks you've been reversed and are on your back with no room to move???

just my .02 take it with a grain of salt
--we are all one--
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Old 07-07-2005, 10:16 AM   #109
Ron Tisdale
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

I don't know squat in any real way about bjj...but I would be Jason Deluca does (as a former competitor in UFC)...and several people on this board as well. Would anyone like to qualify the opinion given above? I'd be interested in learning more...

Best,
Ron

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Old 07-07-2005, 10:28 AM   #110
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I don't know squat in any real way about bjj...but I would be Jason Deluca does (as a former competitor in UFC)...and several people on this board as well. Would anyone like to qualify the opinion given above? I'd be interested in learning more...

Best,
Ron
Ron,

yes, being in the UFC you must have some concept of fighting but just because you get in the octagon doesnt mean your technique cant stink, and IMEO (in my expert opinion) the pass that was shown was horrible and i hope he didnt use it and if he did i can see why he is no longer with them there are more effective ways to pass or even just to get out of the guard period. I'd be happy to explain more if you are still interested

--we are all one--
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Old 07-07-2005, 11:29 AM   #111
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

first- i have not read ANY previous posts before page five so what I am saying may not be completely correct within the context of the discussion.

second- i am assuming that this thread has boiled down to a bjj vs aikido=which will win type discussion

To start off my money is on aikido IF some things happen: 1. it is a streetfight instead of in a controlled enviornment (ala UFC) -- in the rules it is stated that a number of out techniques are illeagl 2. the aikido practitioner has atleast 1 year in a reality based school 3. the aikidoka has a workable knowledge of pressure points 4. the aikidoka has spent some time doing groundwork as part of regular training.

I have trained BJJ with some really good people, including the 2002 & 2003 world champ in both his rank division (blue and purple) and the open division, and a number of others who were invited to be part of the Gracie's panamerican team. I know what bjj is made of. If you play by a BJJ player's rules then you will lose. You must use small circle jujitsu. You must use cervical manipulation. You must use pressurepoints. And you must be able to keep moving on the ground and know how to move. I am lucky that my sensei holds san-dan in kito ryu jujitsu which is where my current ground training comes from. But O Sensei studied Kito too. Groundfighting is built into aikido in the concepts and applications. There is no reason that you should EVER be beaten on the ground as long as you apply the principles correctly.
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Old 07-07-2005, 12:11 PM   #112
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

I would disagree that you can get fairly good at BJJ in 2 years. Perhaps against an untrained attacker, but it takes a long time to ingrain positional escapes into muscle memory, and this must be done before a person can really get good at submissions (so if you lose your position by attempting a submission, you can easily escape and try again). Also, the sensitivity and timing of a 2 year student may not be enough to offset the advantage of an athletic opponent with a weight advantage (say 40-50 pounds). 4-5 years, yes. 1-2 years, no.

The guard pass demonstrated by Mr. DeLucia seems OK to me. Posture is not exclusive to Aikido, and is the first step in passing the guard. Yes, he could get swept from the standing position, but with a high level of awareness, a person can negate this. All techniques have counters. I often use standing passes to open the ankles, then work for a tight pass on my knees.

"Groundfighting is built into aikido in the concepts and applications. There is no reason that you should EVER be beaten on the ground as long as you apply the principles correctly."

I couldn't disagree more, and I'm a huge proponent of linking Aikido and BJJ together. Principles are worthless without an effective training method for putting theory into action, which means many many repititions and sparring against a live opponent. What principles would allow you to escape sidemount, or mount? It's very difficult, if not impossible, to apply pressure points, cervical manipulation, and small circle jiu-jitsu from an inferior position, with gravity, and your opponent keeping you down.


Sincerely,

Roy Dean
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Old 07-07-2005, 12:37 PM   #113
wendyrowe
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Matt Paul wrote:
Ron,

yes, being in the UFC you must have some concept of fighting but just because you get in the octagon doesnt mean your technique cant stink, and IMEO (in my expert opinion) the pass that was shown was horrible and i hope he didnt use it and if he did i can see why he is no longer with them there are more effective ways to pass or even just to get out of the guard period. I'd be happy to explain more if you are still interested

--we are all one--
I suspect we'd all be interested in hearing in detail your expert opinion on how people should pass or escape guard. You should probably tell us two or three different ways, since there might be circumstances under which one perfect way you describe won't work.

The guard pass demonstrated in the clip does work and he has used it successfully in pro fights as well as in training. It's never wise to dismiss a working technique just because it's not what you would do.
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Old 07-07-2005, 12:48 PM   #114
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
I suspect we'd all be interested in hearing in detail your expert opinion on how people should pass or escape guard. You should probably tell us two or three different ways, since there might be circumstances under which one perfect way you describe won't work.

The guard pass demonstrated in the clip does work and he has used it successfully in pro fights as well as in training. It's never wise to dismiss a working technique just because it's not what you would do.
well are we throwing punches or grappling? situation does dictate what you do. is his technique workable yes will it work everytime no id give it once and then throw it out the window if done fast. after watching the video again maybe its more his tech than the move itself that i dont like. but i guess thats just me b/c good tech his hard to beat as im sure you all know

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Old 07-07-2005, 03:14 PM   #115
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Can't watch the video (don't have RM on my linux box here!). So won't comment on that whatsoever.

I do tend to lean in favor of Roy Dean's comments somewhat.

I do believe the principles of aikido to carry forward to ground work. Principles...not techniques 100%. The number one thing I got out of aikido is posture. The number two thing is to relax, blend,and to not muscle technique. I am finding I am way ahead of most beginners in this regard.

It does not change the fact that I have to learn "muscle memory" of many, many techniques which will take many years of consistent practice to become well versed at an "expert" level.

I have found, however, that you can master some basics and become very effective, very quickly on the basics. However, once you start rolling with more experienced people your lack of depth and ability to transistion etc become apparent.

I am not sure I understand pressure points. I used to think I did, but have not found them to be very effective in ground fighting as a strategy. That is, unless you consider chokes pressure point technique Not useful for submission.

Where I have found them useful is getting your opponent to losen up things. Your knuckles on the clavical, chin, grinding your knuckle into the mastoid are good when passing the guard, but they are really used by me as a nuisance as part of a pin or part of my base while I transition or cause uke to release a grip etc.

As far as standing techniques, I find aikido posture to be very relevant. I try and use some techniques, it depends on the situation. If it is grappling without strikes, it becomes difficult to use aikido footwork and setups cause uke assumes away much of the fight. Judo is much more relevant as an approach.

Once you add in striking and kicking, you can irimi and tenkan better. Kaiten nage is a favorite, Sankyo works well, especially for taking the back and taking your opponent to the ground. MMA has made me a believer that it is necessary to have atemi or weapons in aikido in order for it to work.

Where Aikido as a methodology seems to come up weak, is once you go to the clinch. We don't practice this range (from clinch to ground) much in aikido.

Maybe I don't know what I am talking about since I have only 9 years experience in aikido and am currently 2 Kyu. I don't feel qualified to say aikido doesn't work in street fighting.

However, I have found the the MMA training methodology to be much more align to real fighting (whatever that is defined as!) (that is another thread!).

One thing though I always tell my students. ( I am an Army Combatives Instructor), is don't leave the training room thinking you know more than you do. There is always someone out there that may know more than you, and/or less than you, but he has a buddy and/or a weapon to equalize or dominate you!

Gotta keep things in perspective and constantly expand your paradiqm and push your comfort zone in order to become well rounded!
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Old 07-08-2005, 01:23 AM   #116
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Finally got to work and got to watch the video. Here are my impressions. I would never judge the worth of a MA or his teaching from one small video..so I will say that up front. It is possible that this pass works well for him.

Good things: posture. He seems to present an understanding of the basic posture and breaking the guard. Also transistion to base looks decent as well.

Where I have concern is on the transistion to stand up. He does not secure a good base with his arms IMHO and is open to sweeps. He did comment that this was basic, but it is not what I learned. Seems like uke would be able to grab legs and hands. It is hard to hop up with two legs at same time and keep balance. I think he should have secured the arms at the biceps...not sure why he did not do that, it is safer.

Once up, he correctly thrust his hips forward to prevent further sweeps. Posture is key, and Mr Delucia certainly demonstrates that he understand that.

The next concern I have is sticking both hands in together under Uke's legs. I would use an elbow to break down one side while securing a grip on his pants. and concentrate on shifting one hip back to create an opening. You prevent the other hand from being arm barred by securing a grip on uke's pants or shirt. Maybe he is teaching "no gi"???? You should have a hand out for baseing if you get swept etc. I am going to try this myself tommorrow to see if sticking both hands in really are an issue.

Maybe Mr Delucia could comment on his perspective and rational. He certainly has more experience than I, and I am always looking for new stuff!

Good converation!
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Old 07-08-2005, 11:35 PM   #117
DustinAcuff
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Okay, to explain my position on BJJ: It is a sport. A good one, a useful one, but a sport. In real life i dont have even 30 sec to roll around with this guy to tap him, i need him out of action right now and bjj rarely delivers within the first 30 sec against anyone with past grappling experience.
To explain aikido on the ground: shrimp (irimi) hip-shoot (irimi/tenkan) hip switch(tenkan) raise (extend the arm to the sky) cut (cut to center)
things to do: cut into the cervical/mandibular region sankyo the fingers nikyo the wrist ikkyo the elbow gatame the shoulder elbow into the femoral nerve KEEP MOVING hipshoot/hipswitch/shrimp constantly----raise and cut and you will ALWAYS have a technique to do always stay on the ground with as much of your body as possible blend with the energy given (closed eyes tend to make this easiest initially) remember eyes work wonders
things not to do: get on your knees grab pull muscle ignore small digits (fingers and toes) dont go for chokes
you can get out of a good mount and a good side mount and a good gaurd pretty easily, mostly by cutting uke's head one direction or the other. i'm not going to bother trying to fully explain, it cannot be worded. figure it out. watch for armbars.
ways to get out of a choke: triangle: sorry you missed your chance while the femoral nerve was exposed, hopefully you know how to get out the bjj way--this should never have happened.
gi chokes (carotid): cut to center with both arms at mid forearm (chest fly style) or figure out which one is on top and raise the top one and cut the bottom one while suwariwaza tenkaning or insert a finger in and down at the clavicle notch on uke he will probably try to go for an armbar--be ready
rear mount chokes: get the hand behind your head off of you and extend the wrist across your shoulder and/or look for the pulse under uke's bicep near his elbow joint (the place you find the pulse for using a BP cuff) and push up/in toward the bone with your thumb--he will let go and probably jump off of you or reach up behind your head and pick an eye to gouge with your thumb and he WILL let go. dont waste time fiddling with something you cant find because you only have 15 seconds at most if he is doing it right.
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Old 07-09-2005, 04:32 PM   #118
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Having a hard time conceptualizing some of your techniques/strategies. I know they are hard to explain online.

I do have an issue with the pressure point stuff though, and overall your methods, from what I am visualizing, don't seem to be the best course of action, IMHO. (Sorry). I'd love to see you get with a decent BJJ guy and try them out on video or something at full speed, then i'd be a believer.

As far as your philosophy about going to the ground. Yes most BJJ is a sport...just like AIkido is a DO. (just got beat up a little in another thread about generalizing myself ) I have not found one serioius BJJ practicioner that condones going to the ground as a fight strategy. Most of the guys I have worked out with these days have pretty darn good stand up skills as well, and would prefer to end a fight standing.

I used to be fairly critical of BJJ, mainly because of my aikido paradigm of multiple opponents etc....(you know the deal). Once I had my eyes opened by a few good fighters, I changed my mind about what my martial training should consist of. I am in the military and my life and my soldiers lives depend on being martial effective, so in this respect, Aikido does not cut it for teaching effective martial skills for the real world. This should not be construed as Aikido is not a real martial art in anyway, just not effective at teaching in this situation within the timeframe we have to prepare soldiers.


Like all martial arts, BJJ is not anywhere near a holistic system, so you need to find things where you find them and adopt them.

I have found my aikido skills to be a huge help in me as a well rounded martial artist. My footwork, posture, balance, blending etc is decent because of aikido.

I also disagree that BJJ does not deliver within the first 30 seconds against skilled grapplers. It can, it depends on the skill level of the two guys fighting. If you do go to the ground, you do want to be able to finish the fight as fast as possible. Doing that is having the skill to recover, gain dominance over your opponent, and neutralizing him. I think BJJ has much to offer in this particular skill set.

Pressure points, eye gouges, sand in the face, biting are all good things to disrupt the tempo of the fight and to help you out, but they should not be relied upon as a strategy for finishing a fight, and your follow up better be good since you just pissed the guy off even more!

I never have much luck with nerve pressure points like radial and brachial etc. Elbows to the side of the head, chokes, grinding against bones such as clavical etc...do work, but you still need much skill to escape and transition. BJJ guys don't do this everyday because 1. it hurts your uke. 2. it doesn't really help you practice your skills.
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Old 07-09-2005, 09:33 PM   #119
DustinAcuff
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

I agree. A BJJ practitioner will likley beat the vast majority of anyone (aikidoka included) on the ground. The reason - time. There are a hundred thousand little things about the ground that you just have to learn by experience. My time spent in BJJ put me ahead of the game when we started doing ground in class. But just because you are aikido does not under any circumstances mean that you cannot defend yourself on the ground uless you train BJJ. That is my point. If you have 2 years of aikido and are attacked by anyone from any other art and you play by their rules you will lose. That is why the principles are so important, but just being able to recite them is not enough, you must be able to apply them in a sticky spot at a moments notice. It is my firm belief, backed up by everyone I train with currently, that if you learn this stuff (Daito/Aikido) well and can apply it that you should always be the one to walk away.

My entire premise is removing myself from a dangerous situation as rapidly as possible. Given that I will take the first break/lock that I can find, even if it is a thumb or whatever to get back to my feet and get away.

All of the strategies I described are a kind of combination of Kito Ryu and Daito Ryu. Check out Kito on the internet.
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Old 07-10-2005, 04:46 AM   #120
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Your premise is my premise. Absolutely! Remove yourself fromt he situation as rapidily as possible. For a civilian setting, that involves avoidance, keeping distance, and if I do engage, staying up right and then removing myself from the situation. I probably wouldn't even waste my time with joint locks etc, just off balance and go. Really there are very few instances that I can find in my own civilian life that would put me in that situation to begin with...but I suspose they can happen.

Being able to walk away requires much more than your skills as a martial artist. I'd say the situation will dictate more than your skill. It somewhat depends on buddies and weapons available. You can have all the martial skill in the world, but given the wrong set of circumstances your martial skill will have very little to do with your success. Martial skill might buy you time to escape or for your buddy or police etc to intervene, but if you are the bug and he is the windshield...oh well!

I only say this, because I feel very strongly that it is important to keep your empty hand training in the proper perspective. It does not make you invincible, even the best in the world will get beaten on the wrong day....In the Book of Five Rings Mushashi spends an inordinate amount of time talking strategy that leads to success, very, very little about technique.

I never enter an engagement where I have not calculated the outcome and reduced the risk factors to my favor whether it is a office meeting or a cordon and search mission, or walking down the street. I know my opponent, how he will react, and mitigate that upfront even before the battle takes place.

Those things require very little technical martial skill, to me, those things are secondary. This is what budo is about, IMHO. Understanding the holistic part of the martial environment.

Sports, as you point out Dustin, eliminate or narrow the parameters so that both opponents face even odds at the same point in battle. Makes for good training and good entertainment.

Good discussion! Keep the sun behind your back!
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Old 07-11-2005, 08:53 AM   #121
Ron Tisdale
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Thanks for the discussion everyone. I learned some things...

Ron

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Old 07-12-2005, 03:16 PM   #122
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Matt Paul wrote:
i know the above is your opinion but in a good dojo you don't even make blue (1st belt after white) until a year or two has passed, if you talked to someone and they say you can be a master in a year they are a "Mcdojo" and are full of it.

and your video of that guy passing the guard HORRIBLE!!!!!!!
1st if you pass like that head control
2nd there are way better ways to pass than that
3rd it is easily swept by under hooking the ankles and pulling while bucking forward with the hips so know your friend is on his back what next aikido folks you've been reversed and are on your back with no room to move???

just my .02 take it with a grain of salt
--we are all one--
the one person answering from bjj perspective thinks something un-bjj looks horrible .but i'm not approaching the guard from bjj perspective .it is from the aiki perspective to treat all limbs and appendages as a case for ikyo 1st control .if we think in terms of control techniques we're not trying to pass guard at all ,but dealing with our opponent's response to our first control .this method when dealing with guard position leads readily to submission where as traditional aiki control techniques (though they can make people tap) are an ordinary sequence of arrest ,control techniques .from ikyo you can lead into nikyo ,sankyo ,yonkyo ,irimi and shihonage .in the guard your ikyo turns to either guard pass or toe hold ,heel hold ,knee bar ,figure four leg lock ;true submissions which can debilitate .
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Old 07-13-2005, 03:12 PM   #123
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Thanks for the explaination Jason. It gives me alot to think about. I'd be interested in exploring this further. Do you cover this type of thing on your videos?
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Old 07-13-2005, 04:21 PM   #124
wendyrowe
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Re: BJJ vs Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Thanks for the explaination Jason. It gives me alot to think about. I'd be interested in exploring this further. Do you cover this type of thing on your videos?
I just rewatched some of the set with your question in mind since I wouldn't want to steer you wrong. After watching it, I'm pretty sure you'd agree the answer is "yes."

Volumes 3 and 4 are the two that deal with matwork. Among other things, Vol. 3 shows a guard pass (the same one he shows at http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikid...op=show&pid=91 but with more detailed discussion and examples) and then shows various techniques to use from there depending on what your opponent does. He also talks about how it's important not to dwell in guard, and to keep your posture upright rather than playing the BJJ fighter's game.

Vol. 4 shows the same guard pass but continues from there into a variety of submissions. For instance, he demonstrates going from that guard pass to a knee bar or hammer lock or neck crank or figure 4 lock. He also demonstrates how to steer your opponent on the mat by using wrist locks to put him where you want him for your next technique.
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