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Old 07-03-2005, 12:00 PM   #26
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
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Re: what do you think??

My advice is to learn as much as possible from as many arts as possible. Spare bow strings are always good to have should you ever need to use the bow.
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Old 07-03-2005, 01:03 PM   #27
Adam Huss
 
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Re: what do you think??

Oh yes, and when my sensei, myself, and some others started training in aikido, we found that the transition went pretty smoothly as we all had previous martial arts experience. It helped that we were a bit familiar with how to move our bodies and such. So we picked it up (aikido) a bit quicker than the average student straight off the street with no experience in marital arts whatsoever.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 07-03-2005, 02:07 PM   #28
CNYMike
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Re: what do you think??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
I'd agree, there's occasions where the overlap is beneficial. However, the consequences are so severe, it's not worth it. Cross-training is detrimental to Aikido development.
The only "consequence" I've had to deal with so far is a tendency to raise my rear heal when I should keep it down; that comes from throwing a cross in Panantukan (Filipino boxing). It's more of a pain in the butt than anything else, just something I have to watch out for.

For all other concerns, learn to compartmentalize -- do Aikido in Aikido and everything else in everywhere else. I was difficult at first because every other art where I partner train (including Karate -- Sensei Mike Eschenbrenner is pretty much doing his own thing) involves throws and joint locks; it was difficult not to compare and contrast, but as I get more of a "feeling" for Aikido, it's easier to keep them apart. You're more likely to mix up your courtesies than mix up the arts.
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Old 07-03-2005, 04:23 PM   #29
Adam Alexander
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Re: what do you think??

I've wrestled with cross-training a couple times since training Aikido. I found that when it came time to apply something I learned, REFLEX made me combine the different arts inappropriately.

If you want a reportoiry (sp?) of techniques to pass along. That's great. However, if you want a practical art, I don't think you should worry about how to handle ground-fighting when if you had spent all your time with Aikido and were good, you wouldn't be on the ground.

Same goes for fifty different types of strikes--you'll get all of them you need with Aikido (of course, that's style sensitive).


I never understand this. Around 3,000 techniques. And before people get to know those 3,000, they want to go look for another 1,000. Doesn't make sense.
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Old 07-03-2005, 05:02 PM   #30
Adam Huss
 
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Re: what do you think??

Given that you could spend an entire year covering 97 different techiniques, and given the 1,000 times each technique should be repeated before you have a good understanding of it, it seems almost imposible to memorize 3,000 techniques. I would think quality is more important than quantity. Heck, look at the Shihonage Sabu Chan story. Anyways, knowing lots and lots of technique is nice, but memorizing and mastering principals is much more efficient. Then you will start doing techniques you never learned (and you think your all awesome becuase you invented a technique until a few weeks later some is like "Oh yeah, thats ______ Nage/Osae/Otoshi or whatever"and your like "awwh, crap."

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 07-03-2005, 09:58 PM   #31
CNYMike
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Re: what do you think??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
I've wrestled with cross-training a couple times since training Aikido. I found that when it came time to apply something I learned, REFLEX made me combine the different arts inappropriately.
May depend on how you trained; that's why Guro Andy said he and Guro Kevin have a policy of not letting people spar right away, so they use what they use in that class, and not what you already know. It can be done, but not everyone does that correctly.

Quote:
If you want a reportoiry (sp?) of techniques to pass along. That's great. However, if you want a practical art, I don't think you should worry about how to handle ground-fighting when if you had spent all your time with Aikido and were good, you wouldn't be on the ground.
Always assuming that "don't end up on the ground" isn't a bit naiive. In any event, I'm not "worried" about ground fighting. I'm purusuing the arts that interest me, and it just so happens that ground grappling is a part of it (Kali's grappling system is called dumog).

Quote:
Same goes for fifty different types of strikes--you'll get all of them you need with Aikido (of course, that's style sensitive).
Memo to me: aske Sensei when he gets to cross, hook, and finger jab.

Quote:
I never understand this. Around 3,000 techniques. And before people get to know those 3,000, they want to go look for another 1,000. Doesn't make sense.
It's not so much about techniques as having tools for whatever range you find yourself at. And once you learn the principles, you generate technques.
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Old 07-04-2005, 01:30 PM   #32
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: what do you think??

Quote:
It's not so much about techniques as having tools for whatever range you find yourself at. And once you learn the principles, you generate technques.
I agree, I have found that by concentrating on principles in aikido, that they are fairly universal. I have no problem transistioning from aikido to BJJ, for instance, because the underlying principles are the same.

Where I have had problems is when you go to a school that focuses on techniques such as joint locks, and they do not understand the underlying dynamics of principle. They will "adjust" your technique, even though you know intuitively that how you are doing it, while not exactly like their style, is correct since it follows the principles of proper body position and mechanics.

More often than not, I have found that I am able to show them "gaps" in their technique and help them expand the paradigm of their training. That is, if they are willing to be open minded.

Even in BJJ, pretty much everything works off a few basic postures such as the mount, guard, side control, and rear mount. Once you master the basics of dynamic movement, the permutations of techniques are endless!

Same with aikido, good kamae, good posture, everything is a derivation of a few simple postures and attacks from uke! I believe that once you have a sound base in principles, everything else goes much easier!
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Old 07-05-2005, 04:09 PM   #33
Adam Alexander
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Re: what do you think??

Well, I guess we all do what's right for us. I just stick to the line from Funakoshi: The Samurai of old had a narrow field, but plowed deep furrows. (If it's not exact, that's the point)
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Old 07-06-2005, 06:25 PM   #34
CNYMike
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Re: what do you think??

^^ Funakoshi also wrote (in his biography which, now that I need it, has grown legs and walked off on me or I'd cite the exact page), that whereas many Okinawan MA masters (remember, karate as we know it had different names then) refused to let their students study under other masters, Funakoshi's teachers, Anzato and Itosu, not only encouraged him to study under other people but actually introduced him to other masters. We see the same trends today: There are some teachers who do not want their students study under anyone else, and even boot people who do; but others who don't mind, and some, who encourage it. (Three guesses as to which type I've forunate enough to have been exposed to.)
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Old 07-06-2005, 09:37 PM   #35
CNYMike
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Re: what do you think??

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
^^ Funakoshi also wrote (in his biography which, now that I need it, has grown legs and walked off on me or I'd cite the exact page)....
I found it!

On page 15 and 16 of Karate-Do: My Way of Life, Funakoshi writes that "Both Azato" (whose name I misspelled before) "and his good friend Itosu shared at least one quality of greatness: they suffered from no petty jealousy of other masters. They would present me to the teachers of their acquaintace, urging me to learn from each the technique at which he excelled. Ordinary karate instructors, in my experience, are reluctant to permit their pupils to study under instructors of other schools, but this was far from true of either Azato or Itosu."

Back on page 14, Funakoshi noted that "Azato was also a highly skilled fencer of the Jigen school of Kendo." So not only did Azato and Itosu encourage Fuinakoshi to study under people other than them, Azato himself may have been doing some crosstraining himself, because he was a karate master and a kendoka.
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Old 07-07-2005, 01:03 PM   #36
Adam Alexander
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Re: what do you think??

Yeah, like I said earlier...if your first priority is being a teacher or coming up with your own style...study everything. If you want to have a set of similarly principled techniques that build on each other, stick with Aikido.

I thought that was clear with the last posts.

Intersting quotes though. I think you've done a good job supporting what I'm saying. Funakoshi put together his own art and was a teacher. Therefore, it was good for him to study under many. However, when he referred to Samurai, he implied that the good guys only had a handful of techniques that they knew very well.

Thanks for the support.
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Old 07-07-2005, 01:40 PM   #37
DustinAcuff
Dojo: Tan Aiki Dojo
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Re: what do you think??

just a question/point: when you plant a tree it grows branches on its own. when you plant many trees you get a bunch of trees not one tree with more branches. a newer idea is splicing together a branch from a diffrent tree so that certian limbs produce certian fruit. you dont need to crosstrain to become a better MAist. you can, and it will have reprocussions both good and bad, but you dont have to crosstrain to become better.
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Old 07-07-2005, 09:07 PM   #38
CNYMike
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Re: what do you think??

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Yeah, like I said earlier...if your first priority is being a teacher or coming up with your own style...study everything. If you want to have a set of similarly principled techniques that build on each other, stick with Aikido.
My "priority" is doing the things I'm interested. I don't have a long term goal of forming my own style; I'm simply following my nose. That includes studying everything I've listed, and seeing where they take me. And as everything has "principled techniques that build on each other," I don't see a contradiction. And some principles pop up over and over: What a FMA person might call a branch-up joint lock, an aikido person would consider a variation of shiho-nage. Who's right? Both. The difference is in the persepctive and in the culture.

Quote:
... Intersting quotes though. I think you've done a good job supporting what I'm saying. Funakoshi put together his own art and was a teacher .....
I haven't really read the book, so I don't know if that was his long term goal. But there's a flaw in your logic: If you stay with the same Aikido dojo and never do anything else, guess what? You will end up being an Aikido instructor, because that's what dojos do, produce instructors. (Or they should.)

Quote:
...... Therefore, it was good for him to study under many. However, when he referred to Samurai, he implied that the good guys only had a handful of techniques that they knew very well .....
While that phiosophy informed Shotokan -- only 15 kata from 0 to black belt, though some styles and more and some styles had less -- it's wrong to think of the Samurai as having a narrow focus. Samurai Fighting Arts: The Spirit and Practice by Fumon Tanaka outlines how the Bujitsu systems were actually comprehensive, including many armed and empty hand skills, collectively known as juhappan, "the eighteen martial arts," they were either taught individually or collectively. When the modern budo systems -- Judo, kendo, nagatinado, karate-do (which is an import from Okinawa), aikido, Shorinji kempo and jukendo -- were developed, things were broken apart from the bujitsu systems and people began to specialize. And there's nothing wrong with specializing.

But the samurai were all-arounders. If you think they had the katana and some jujitsu moves, guess again.
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Old 07-08-2005, 01:35 AM   #39
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: what do you think??

Quote:
When the modern budo systems -- Judo, kendo, nagatinado, karate-do (which is an import from Okinawa), aikido, Shorinji kempo and jukendo -- were developed, things were broken apart from the bujitsu systems and people began to specialize. And there's nothing wrong with specializing.
I agree. The DO arts seemed to be derived from the SU arts that were collections of warrior skills used in combat. The guys like Funakoshi, Kano, and Ueshiba figured out that these things when taught a certain way to people lead to strong healthly bodies and good citizens/people. They each seemed to distill fromt the systems those things that they were either strong in or more importantly felt that best represented the slant on what was important to convey their philosophy/way/or DO.

I bellieve where we (westerners) go wrong with these arts is that we lead ourselves to believe that they are still somewhat "solution sets" or holilistic fighting systems that can be applied today. We get romantic notions put into our heads by folklore and movies. Sure there are self defense benefits, and sure there are martial benefits to be gained, but I think approaching these systems with this as a major benefit or outcome leads to much frustration and misapplication of the system of study.

What I believe is important is that you meditate, decide, or figure out what your endstate is with respect to martial arts training and focus on that.

If it is to be a better person, self actualization, physical fitness, fun, community service etc...that is great and that you just need to find a DO art that fits your mood/philosophy/physicality/personaility etc. It might be many/several over the course of the years.

If your goal is to be a UFC/Pride or sport fighter, then you should find schools that will make you the best in that area.

If your a police officer, military, bouncer, or other professional, then you narrow your focus to teach you things that are helpful and applicable. That might come from one instructor, or many.

Or...it might be all these things in a different balance.

My point is this:

What is important is that you constantly evaluate yourself, try to be honest with yourself and your objectives, and not delude yourself into trying to make an art or yourself into something that you or it is not.

Mastery is an interesting concept. I highly recommend George Leonard's Book on Mastery.

Everyone has to make up his/her own mind about what mastery means to them. To some it may be defined as being a Sandan in aikido. To others 2 KYU in five arts. Achieving your endstate is what is important!
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Old 07-08-2005, 03:01 PM   #40
Adam Alexander
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Re: what do you think??

Dang. That was a lot of posts for everyone to agree.

To the original poster...The answer to what you should do is...depends on what your goals are.
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