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Old 05-15-2005, 09:24 PM   #51
"Embarrassed"
IP Hash: 2a3aee61
Anonymous User
Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Hi all,

Let's get a few facts right:

1. I am an aikido junkie. I have no intention of bashing aikido; I apologize if someone take it that way.

2. I might have lost a friend - a platonic girl. I am also embarrassed to face her after convincing her to pick up the art.

3. I have no idea that the assistant instructor will take one of the class. Both times she was injured, it was in his class.

4. I could not have protected her as we were partnering together and the incidents happened. Even I was, what sort of protection could I offer, after all the perpetrator was leading the class. If I have told him to stop chances were he would take it out on me or someone else in the class.

5. He did not take her to the side of mats to be massaged, he massaged her while she was still lying down after the pin. I don't think she was in the position to brush him away. Others in the class saw the incidents including her partner during the practice.

6. One of the dojo owners is always present when the perpetrator takes class. That is why I was looking for a legal redress - not for a law suit but to inform the owners about the legal liabilities they are exposed to as long they have this guy teaching the class.

Finally, I am a guy and English is not my mother's tongue. That's all I can divulge without people guessing which dojo I belong to.

Best
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Old 05-15-2005, 09:29 PM   #52
"Embarrassed"
IP Hash: 2a3aee61
Anonymous User
Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Sorry for the mistakes:

2. I might have lost a friend - a platonic girlFRIEND. I am also embarrassed to face her after convincing her to pick up the art.

4. I could not have protected her as we were NOT partnering together WHEN the incidents happened. Even I was, what sort of protection could I offer, after all, the perpetrator was leading the class. If I have told him to stop chances were he would take it out on me or someone else in the class.

Done
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Old 05-16-2005, 09:59 AM   #53
"jon"
IP Hash: f4f00d48
Anonymous User
Triangle Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Sorry, I still don't buy it. I find the recent explanation very misleading, and thus questionable. Therefore, I still have the the same problems with accuracy, validity, and the motive behind the story.

The recent explanation brings up more questions of accuracy and validity. Patterns of thought and writing style is something to take note of, which is very revealing. There are many more significant points then I discuss to go over now. I will touch on the less significant issues I have for the sake of brevity. I am assuming the more significant issues to be questioned are pretty obvious. But, I will be glad to discuss the other significant points if requested.

Why is "Embarrassed" trying so hard to conceal names, and places, and his gender and identity? Why does hes writing style lend to concealing more then just the situation of the people involved? There are constructed layers of anonymity, which are not to simply protect the Innocent.

He was misleading in his gender and posting style. The primary language issue was never brought up until it was suggested. Rebecca's post seem to be the template for the recent explanation from "Embarrassed." Yet, none of the previous concerns to his story have been address.

It is interesting the poster will not discuss points made earlier that brought up in question. Thus, I question the motives behind these statements made by him that suspiciously puts a quick stop on the discussion. A technique very common among troll, or people who are uncomfortable and resist further discussion and proper explanations because the story they tell is fabricated in detail or observation, because they have something to hide. The technique of putting a quick on a discussion like "Embarrassed" has isn't a property of those with English is a second language.
Quote:
Finally, I am a guy and English is not my mother's tongue. That's all I can divulge without people guessing which dojo I belong to.
Now to further my point, let's look, for example, at how Mike Logan ends his last rant.
Quote:
Done for now.
Now compare that to how "Embarrassed" end his last post Done, both a point of finality.

Also,
Quote:
Mike Logan wrote:
Ok, for your concern on consistency, let's say the original poster is a guy. If his girlfriend were not speaking to him about something she felt horribly embarrased by, almost mortally so, and perhaps she now felt betrayed by his lact of action on her behalf, would you not find it reasonable that she might confide in a woman?
- Please take note of the errors make here by Mike Logan. He misspelled "embarrased" for embarrassed and "lact" for lack. These errors could be attributed to being made by someone who speaks English as a second language.

Now compare that to what "Embarrassed" said recently,
Quote:
I might have lost a friend - a platonic girlFRIEND. I am also embarrassed to face her after convincing her to pick up the art.
I see a pattern among other this of foreshadowing. First with Rebbecca ( suggestion of not being a native speaker) and then with Logan who seems to provide the supportive details beforehand.

I don't know if "Embarrassed" is a native speaker of English or not. There was nothing all in the post that identified him as a person who doesn't have a good grasp and command of English, thus was aware of how his story and the title would have sounded. It seems to me again there is more to question about the validity of the author and his motives.
Does English as a second language change the question of validity, and accuracy credible? We all know what he said, and how he said it, all in good structured English, so much so no one questioned that. Many of assumed he was a native English speaker, or had no idea he wasn't. Because of his writing style, many of where lead to believe and assumed he was a she. Which I don't see the reason of the gender anonymity?

I am not sure if the actual events took place. Certainly, I question the account of events, and the credibility of the author. Therefore, I still stand behind that the story is bogus, and was to incite an emotional reaction that designed to affront Aikido. I say this because nothing solid has been told or shown otherwise.
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Old 05-16-2005, 10:47 AM   #54
MikeLogan
 
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Quote:
ANON#2 wrote:
... for the sake of brevity.
Since others have said it better, I will step aside for the one and only:
Quote:
Polonius, of The Tragedy of Hamlet wrote:
Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit,
And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,
I will be brief.
Go ahead and look at how I ended my "rant", it might have been more use to have examined the rant itself. Just a little bit.
Quote:
ANON#2 wrote:
He misspelled "embarrased" for embarrassed and "lact" for lack. These errors could be attributed to being made by someone who speaks English as a second language.
"Could", sure, but more like they were made by someone who should have acquainted themselves with the spell checker. Again, thanks for the informative m'e'ssage, my bact feels grate.

I would love to go on, but I'm taking the advice of Zato Ichi. This is your last bite. Congratulations, you've won! Print this out and hang it on your wall! Show your friends, and family!
Quote:
Evil, of Time Bandits wrote:
Dear Benson, you are so mercifully free of the ravages of intelligence
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Old 05-16-2005, 11:06 AM   #55
akiy
 
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Hi folks,

Just wanted to step in here and put in my two cents. Personally, I don't think there's any reason to question neither the veracity nor the intent of the original poster's claims; I sure didn't see it as any affront to aikido. For me, at least, his post brings up some issues in aikido that should be discussed. I'm sorry to say that his report does not surprise me too much, unfortunately...

As far as the vagueness and anonymity of the poster, I'll point out that this is the Anonymous forum. As long as people raise a pertinent issue, they very well should be allowed to do so anonymously. I do not think there is any need to attribute malicious intent nor ulteriour motive to what they have written.

Lastly, please note that one of the forum rules specific to the Anonymous forum is, " Hiding behind anonymity for inappropriate postings is strictly prohibited." Attacking the character of people involved in this thread, whether directly or indirectly, is not appropriate.

So, please -- let's discuss the issues rather than redirecting this thread to personal attacks.

Thank you,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
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Old 05-16-2005, 12:40 PM   #56
"jon"
IP Hash: 451a1046
Anonymous User
Triangle Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Let me apologize now if it sounds as if I have attacked anyone's character. I want to separate myself from those who make personal attacks and insults instead of refuting an argument which I have experienced.

I don't think "Embarrassed's" story is accurate and shouldn't be looked at with some skepticism as told. I do feel the way the story has some familiar patterns used by others like blowing things out of proportion, as well as trollish and spam like sentences ( All of which I previously pointed out) to get people's attention. I don't know if this is done intentional or not. But never the less it makes be suspect to the validity of the version of the story and the motivations behind it. This is what I am discussing. I don't want to call anyone a troll, or insulting them unless there are hard facts to back it up. I believe in fair play. I am dealing with the story and the explanation behind it, which I am not satisfied enough to give it my stamp of credibility.

The subject of the story is a serious matter, because if it didn't happened as explained exactly way a third party told it then a Dojo, a Sensei, and an assistant Sensei obvious will suffer unjustly. According to some posters they say the know this dojo already. What if they are mislead. Who is that fair to. Don't own to our Aikido community to be skeptical, to take a hard look at these accusations of criminal acts?

It is easy for anyone to feel for a victim and not feel an emotion against a perceived criminal act. But, my I remind everyone who sees my actions as antagonistic that you are innocent until proven guilty. That requires finding the testing all the facts to find the truth. A person shouldn't be proven guilty based on a third person account that is easily questionable. Or in other cases, guilt through hype and public opinion/assumption. Something that is more and more influencing our judicial system and how we, as a public, perceive innocence and guilt. A great example of this is the Peterson case. And the Micheal Jackson case, both cases are being tried by public opinion, which the law reflects, and not by reason or the other instruments in our Judaical system. Public opinion gets more weight in who is guilty or innocent.

What I am saying is we are replacing at break-neck speed formative tools of reason and logic that lead us to truth for public opinion to determine who is or isn't guilty. As Walter Cronkite recently said, and I am paraphrasing, We as a public no longer what the truth reviled rather we want someone to reinforce our side of the issue.

This speak volumes in pointing to how the public looks at, and deals with issues of importance. I am be a bit old fashion, but I want the truth to be reviled before I exclaim that the "sky is falling." per serious action of house cleaning Aikido of bad apples.

Thank for your consideration.
Jon
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Old 05-16-2005, 01:00 PM   #57
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Quote:
but I want the truth to be reviled before I exclaim that the "sky is falling
Ok, I revile the truth!

from www.dictionary.com: To assail with abusive language; vituperate.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-16-2005, 01:35 PM   #58
"jon"
IP Hash: 451a1046
Anonymous User
Triangle Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Here is my story

I had a friend some years back when in my 20's who would wait for new woman to enter the dojo, and upon injury, would massage the injury out some what. Usually, as we all know new students will often times injury their shoulders mildly or develop muscle soreness learning ukemi. Especially, if they have never before done any type of athletics or out of shape. My then friend felt that, that was an ideal way to approach or solicit woman for a date. How ever you want to look at it, it was his way of picking up woman in a non-aggressive way. Our dojo specialized in helping and catering atmosphere ( no macho BS ) for woman, thus a very attractive attribute to woman looking for a martial art.

This friend was very interested in new students for the reason he could possibly meet a woman. He would massage a woman and while doing that he would talk to them during the massage to get better acquainted with them, and for the woman to get to know him. If it didn't work out, he said it ended there. There was never any incident or disruption I can remember that resulted on the mat or in class. He did his massage usually right after first aid was given on the injury on the mat during class, so we all heard it what he said and how he said it. In my view, its was a kind of a neutral, safe pre-date thing. At twenty something, he was a bit shy of woman and feared rejected. You find better quality woman in a dojo then a bar, or meat market gym. It was this method that worked out for him. He was successful at it.

The downside is this caused a lot of jealously among the single woman and men in the dojo. For those woman he didn't pay attention too in the dojo they that dislike him; hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. For a few of the young single men it was competition, and they didn't like it, as he was winning all the time.

Of course his way of picking up woman was very smooth, and not abrasive, again there was not negative fallout when they didn't find him their type. It didn't disrupt the dojo or make it look like a meat market dojo. The downside of it was the jealousy from other woman and men, who consistently bad mouth him, and tried to make the whole ordeal into something that it wasn't. This is what cased strife in the dojo.

After sometime he finally found a woman he could settle down with. She was a student of Aikido that he had massaged as a result of an injury. After getting to know her she had said that woman many like herself will find martial arts men to be attractive, and have allot in common. It is an alternative for woman who do like meat market bars or gyms to find love.

I have known many couples who have met at the dojo and fell in love. It really is a great way to find out about someone. To met in something that is a shared interests is a strong component to a relationship. I don't put my old friend down because he found a way non-threatening way to communicate to woman his personality. He never intentionally hurt anyone. In fact, he took a lot of abuse resulting in injuries from new students, both male and female. This is not to say he work with every new student that walk through the door, it is true he would take more interest into woman he found attractive.

As I recall this story, I can see how someone could or would misunderstand what he was doing as unethical. To continue Rebecca's hypothetical, a person could be jealous or mad at him and use this against him. They could say he is abusing his position and woman, taking full advantage of them while they are injured and weak. A time when they are most vulnerable. Saying such a thing can gain a lot of support, and turn the tables against my friend, this sort of thing does happen allot. Then as a result, wouldn't it wise to skeptical and to reserve judgment until the facts are in and weighed when you hear stuff like that?

Post thoughts:

Personally, I would like to know if the woman in "Embarrassed's" story warrented him to post her story. Has he posted her story without consent? If she didn't give her permission isn't that just or more unethical then the massage? It is about permission isn't it? I hope this isn't the case.


My friend moved soon after his marriage, and I have lost contact through the years. Thus my referal to him as my old friend.

Thank you.

Jon
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Old 05-16-2005, 01:58 PM   #59
"jon"
IP Hash: 451a1046
Anonymous User
Re: Spreading this wonderful budo- correction

Thanks for pointing this out, t's always nice when someone offers to proof read. I guess English is my second language. Ok, Celtic is my first. Not really. I am playing on the history of the English and its language.

Quote:
correction wrote:
but I want the truth, not to be reviled, before it's exclaimed that the "sky is falling"
.
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Old 05-17-2005, 07:12 AM   #60
ruthmc
Dojo: Wokingham Aikido
Location: Reading, UK
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Quote:
I had a friend some years back when in my 20's who would wait for new woman to enter the dojo, and upon injury, would massage the injury out some what. <snip> My then friend felt that, that was an ideal way to approach or solicit woman for a date. How ever you want to look at it, it was his way of picking up woman in a non-aggressive way. <snip> This friend was very interested in new students for the reason he could possibly meet a woman.
Your friend's ethics behind giving massage were questionable, in that case. Massage should be given with the intent to help and to heal, not with the intent to ask somebody for a date!

If your friend was a member of a professional bodywork organisation, he would have been thrown out of it for unethical behaviour. This has actually happened to some practitioners who behaved in the way that your friend did.

It is important when giving massage or any other kind of bodywork to respect the boundaries of the receiver, or you will taint the treatment. You also run the risk of bringing massage into disrepute, making it even more difficult for genuine practitioners to make a living from it than it already is.

It would be nice if people would occasionally consider the wider consequences of their actions.

Ruth (Shiatsu student)
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Old 05-17-2005, 10:51 AM   #61
"jon"
IP Hash: 9d7f5996
Anonymous User
Triangle Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

This was back in the early 80's when I was a freshmen in college. The times where different then and here in the states. You would be surprised that when I was in the dorms co-ed, it was the in-thing to give massages to the opposite sex. Remember we where just off the end of the sexual revolution. Massages where I was at in California was very common way as a way to get to first base and experience sex, or to get a date with someone. No longer was making out ( nice word for sex ) in your Dad's car at make out ridge the in my folk's time.

You would be also surprised the middle aged woman complaining of soreness in class to my friend who would let him massage them. I swear there where times when it was a line after class. Also to note the times then, it was considered homosexual to be massaged by another guy. Times where so much different then.

Times have changed, and that was then. I am sure you can sue someone for giving you a bad massage now. We also changed what is and what isn't acceptable between men and woman; refined what sexual harrassment is and isn't, what is bad and good touch. We have come to know the term "date rape" amoung others. It is a different dating game and seen now. The playing field has changed and so have the rules, and they keep changing. Thank God I am married.

Personally, I wouldn't let anyone, but a professional licensed Registered Physical Therapist (RPT) massage me if I was injured on or off the mat. If injuried and the person doesn't know what he is doing it could lead to further injury.
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Old 05-17-2005, 11:08 AM   #62
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

There is a definate difference between the following:

a) a group of willing participants giving each other massages on a college campus

b) an individual in a dojo asking a dojo mate for a massage

c) an individual on staff who teaches in a dojo proffering unsolicited massages to get a date.

If you can't tell the difference...hopefully you'll figure it out before you ever decide to run a dojo.

RT

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-17-2005, 02:06 PM   #63
"jon"
IP Hash: 86c3cc90
Anonymous User
Triangle Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
If you can't tell the difference...hopefully you'll figure it out before you ever decide to run a dojo.

RT
Do you always come off so poorly? Please... a member of this board had a concern. If you can't figure out that all I was saying is to that member, is my friend's actions and the actions happened over the last 20 years ago. Only to ease the member's concern then I don't know what to tell you.

In those days, back then we had different values, and outlooks. In the 80's demonstrated by the film "9 to 5" Woman strongly rooted in fighting and gaining ground for equality in all sorts of areas, as a result of the Woman's movement of the 60's and 70s. A movement that helped lots of woman redefine themselves. A movement that was about freedom from all sorts of female stereotypes including sexual stereotypes, that help them gain equality. Equality in the area of sexuality. That is they could be as free as men to do what they liked. Battling against the double standard. It was no longer so taboo for an woman during her sexual pique to exploit her sexuality, and rebuff the double standard by having an affair with a younger man, for example. I doubt if you are aware of the book popular in the 60's that was part of the sexual revolution for woman, "Coffee, Tea, or Me."

What was a shift in my opinion marked a significant change in the woman's movement direction was the famous Anita Hill case. Which gave us the household term of Sexual Harassment, as a result of politics as usual. This sparked a focus to change the work place behavior. A very conservative revolution compared to that of the 60's and 70's. This was the starting foundation for sexual harassment, what is appropriate behavior and what isn't between the sexes. Please don't anyone twist this around and try and make me look like I don't support sexual harassment laws in the work place, or I am for sexually harassing others in the work place. I don't want to read those type of disrespectful, sophomoric, and profoundly unfounded acusations.

My point of bringing up the story of my friend was to illustrate a possibility that there isn't just one way of looking at a situation from a 3rd party view in "Embarrasse's" story. It was to present a different hypothetical of the situation as started by Rebbecca. Finally, to demonstrate that not all situations are the same what may have happened as described by "Embarrassed" may not be the same case in every similar situation in every instance. We should not similar looking situations at face value. We should look into each case independently on its own ground first as we put our emotions to the aside. We first must use formative and honored tools of logic and reason, before, we make a judgment. What if the police didn't asks question and investigate a situation, and use emotional reaction based on what they seen or heard to make an arrest? How many times would they arrest the victim as the perpetrator? What if they emotionally judged every similar incident and situation by one incident. My goodness, I can't even think of that.

I don't know of too many people who get far in life, if didn't use reason and logic! Not too assume all situations that look alike are the same! That you have to look at each situation differently, and not generalize everything. Shessssh how hard is that to understand.....


We are taught that at home as kids, "don't judge a book by it's cover", "don't jump to conclusions" and "your innocent until proven guilty." " to step back and look at things from a different angle." "Don't assume." We are taught logic and reason and how to use it and apply in school as early as Kindergarten through college. We are expected to use it in society in our jobs. I ask you, how hard is that to comprehend?

A member had a concern, I was simply explaining my story was along time ago to ease her concerns and let her know it wasn't recent. I also let her know that I agree that a pro should do the massaging, but I am not the almighty dictator of the world. I have no control over what other people do, and if they aren't hurting anyone who am I too complain. My friend didn't hurt anyone. As a matter of fact, it worked out for him and his wife. A woman who joined the class to find a nice boy. It is their life, not mine, or anyone else's.

It is none of my business to involve or concern myself with other people's affairs such as by friends and the woman who where involved. He wasn't braking any laws. He wasn't a rapist or a murderer. He wasn't injuring people on purpose, in fact it was the other way around. I don't get into other peoples lives where I don't belong. I don't get into anyone else's business.

Someone will say that if I will allow someone to harm someone else. That is false. If I see a law being broken I will report it. If I see a rule broken I will enforce it in the dojo. If I see dojo abuse happening I will stop it. But I will not put my values upon others. Or interfere in other peoples lives regardless of my own opinion. Otherwise, it is none of my business.
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Old 06-23-2005, 11:01 PM   #64
"Embarrassed"
IP Hash: 2a3aee61
Anonymous User
Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Hi all,

I guess someone has pointed out this post to dojo owners after finding similarities of the situation & people. The assistant instructor has stopped leading the class and reverted to just taking the uke role for the dojo owner who is the sole instructor now. While the class trains, the ex-assistant instructor does shadow fighting with his bokken in a corner of the class. Most of us are happy and some of us are hoping that he will not show up at all. He does look very pathetic without his ego - probably we are used to his cruel grins and sometime clowning ways while bullying the students.

Alas, the damage has been done. The class attendance has 50% from its regular 18~20 people now. It is sad when crony ism takes place in a dojo.

Very thanks for posts, guys.

Embarrassed
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Old 06-24-2005, 08:00 AM   #65
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

I'm sorry that one person had such a negative affect on your practice. I think if the instructor is consistent in his correction of the offender, things will turn around and the attendence will pick up again. Consistancy is key. And respecting the boundries of others. In my mind, respect of another's boundries is not tied to one place or time...it should be the same in the 60's, today, in the states, or overseas.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-25-2005, 08:27 AM   #66
"jon"
IP Hash: 0f0dce12
Anonymous User
Exclamation Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Quote:
Hi all,

I guess someone has pointed out this post to dojo owners after finding similarities of the situation & people. The assistant instructor has stopped leading the class and reverted to just taking the uke role for the dojo owner who is the sole instructor now. While the class trains, the ex-assistant instructor does shadow fighting with his bokken in a corner of the class. Most of us are happy and some of us are hoping that he will not show up at all. He does look very pathetic without his ego - probably we are used to his cruel grins and sometime clowning ways while bullying the students.

Alas, the damage has been done. The class attendance has 50% from its regular 18~20 people now. It is sad when crony ism takes place in a dojo.

Very thanks for posts, guys.

Embarrassed
All I can say is.....this person's comments are very, very disturbing and sad. It increases my skepticism of what actually took place or if it did at all, and the purpose for all of
Embarrassed posts. An attack behind anonymity on someone anonymous, happen in an anonymous place is an attack, is an attack. It could be look at with great skepticism.

I am not rushing up behind Embarrassed with all my support for what we are to believe is an experience of a poor unfortunate Aikidoka who if you look closely enough at all the posts you can argue has a bias and agenda. I read this and all other posts from this person with extreme skepticism and caution for the truth. Unless presented otherwise more revealing factual and unbiased information, I can't in good conscious,faith and fairness throw out cheers of support, or supportive admonishments for this person and their situation.
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Old 06-25-2005, 08:53 AM   #67
"jon"
IP Hash: 0f0dce12
Anonymous User
Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

I also can't see Embarrassed's situation ( if it is true ) to be a plaguing hallmark situation that is wide spread and universal in Aikido or its ranks to warrant grave and serious action. I don't see the need for a banner waving call to Arms for a revolution of change in Aikido dojos based on based this one Embarrassed's described situation, and it's reasonable questionable validity. Or more mildly, a call of a wave of supportive admonishments to those we are to assume, in the dojo, to be culprits, rapscallions, or predatory egomaniacs who sexually harass timid and defenseless woman whose only action and recourse for justice is to take it to an Internet discussion board all in anonymity?

I hope this ends the thread, until we are presented with facts and a better and more reasonal perspective that the sky isn't falling! Or it isn't the War of the Worlds.
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Old 06-25-2005, 11:23 AM   #68
"Embarrassed"
IP Hash: d2c3ff94
Anonymous User
Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Quote:
I also can't see Embarrassed's situation ( if it is true ) to be a plaguing hallmark situation that is wide spread and universal in Aikido or its ranks to warrant grave and serious action. I don't see the need for a banner waving call to Arms for a revolution of change in Aikido dojos based on based this one Embarrassed's described situation, and it's reasonable questionable validity. Or more mildly, a call of a wave of supportive admonishments to those we are to assume, in the dojo, to be culprits, rapscallions, or predatory egomaniacs who sexually harass timid and defenseless woman whose only action and recourse for justice is to take it to an Internet discussion board all in anonymity?

I hope this ends the thread, until we are presented with facts and a better and more reasonal perspective that the sky isn't falling! Or it isn't the War of the Worlds.
Hi Jon (if that's your true name),

Honestly, I don't give a damn about what you feel. My conscience is clear. I have not attacked anyone or organisation by name. Somewhat you took the situation at my dojo very personal as if you are amongst the guilty ones. In fact, you took the opportunity to spin off a couple of threads from here. Why don't we come out clean? I will tell the world who I am at the risk of being excommunicated by my teacher and organisation. By doing so, I would be causing him to lose face in the aikido community here and even in the World Headquarters. You should also come clean, tell us who you are and where do you teach.

Since the identity of "Deep Throat" has been known, perhaps the aikido community (at least in the States) can now something to speculate, "Who in the world is Jon?"

The bottomline is we the students are now happy with our training and the instructor/dojo owner has regained our trust.

Best training

Embarassed
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Old 06-25-2005, 11:16 PM   #69
"jon"
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

The question is who is Embarrassed?

I take the "Deep Throat" comment as a compliment.

You don't have to "give a damn" of what I feel. I don't have to give a hoop 'n holler of what you feel. But, I am not going to agree or be skeptical or pressured to because I am told to. I don't jump off a cliff because everyone who is happens to be emotional charged? No Jim Jones or Heaven's Gate, No Helter Skelter, and no "because someone said so, or told me." Each diabolical leader of the groups fore mentioned had convinced people to jump on their bandwagon. Charles Mason evidently was good at that, convincing people to jump on a bandwagon. This just shows vividly the absence of critical thinking is over-shadowed by the power emotional thinking. This is one of man's greatest weakness.

Point is buyer beware. If we lose our sense of skepticism and critical thinking to allowing our emotional buttons being pushed, we endanger ourselves to the danger of our mentality. Rational critical thinking is the hand break to our emotional reaction. Thought before reaction. Clear thinking. Seeing the whole picture. Understanding the scope of the event(s) when our emotional buttons are pushed, before the consequences. Wisdom. The ability to discern, and evaluate. I would hate to have a doctor diagnose or preform surgery upon me as the result of an emotional reaction rather then based on training and experience which encompasses rational critical thinking.

Emotional reaction is a powerful part of being human. It is a very dangerous beast when people push those buttons.
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Old 06-27-2005, 01:26 AM   #70
"Embarrassed"
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Quote:
The question is who is Embarrassed?
Hi "Jon",

You are apt at diversions with your lengthy posts. My reasons for animosity are well stated. What are yours? You are still hiding for no reason.

Embarrassed
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Old 06-27-2005, 10:19 AM   #71
"jon"
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

My reasons for not disclosing all of my personal information, sex height, DOB, family are all personal and it is a decision I alone make. I don't want to get into my personal background because feel there is a responsibility to my career, my family, and my dojo. I don't wish any of them to be affected by harassment of someone who can't control their emotional state of mind. I don't want them personally attacked, pranked on the net or with phone calls by trolls or others who my disagree with me, that I know nothing of. I wish not to go through that again. I have a right as you to privacy. I do use a first name. I am being honest by stating to some anonymity. I am being far more honest and up front by not making up a name or a cute tag-line.

The nature of the net is anonymity. We may know someone's name ( or think we do, e.g. use of pen names), we are posting to but we don't always know the person. The next reason for anonymity is less personal attacks, and more focus on the topic, thus more quality threads. Far too often when people can't refute and are emotional off balance they go for the jugular of another poster, going after someone personally with the knowledge of their personal background, thereby, going off-topic and turning the thread upside down. Very much like I see you maybe attempting to do.

I have read many good threads that don't send flags waving about abuse in the dojo. There is no vindictive justification and victory celebration at the end of the discussion. No reason to doubt the sincerity of the poster. No tell tail signs of manipulation to gather support born from emotional button pushing. Nothing that make anyone the discussion isn't genuine. BTW, these posters I mention, don't sign with clever tag-lines instead of names and there is no anonymity of the victims who are female and male.

Upon answering your questions, I feel there is no reason to continue this thread. I am not concern with who you are at this point. Your concern has run it's course and has come to an end. Your problem has been solved. I see no other reason to carry on this discussion, unless new information comes to light about it.
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Old 06-27-2005, 04:24 PM   #72
ElizabethCastor
 
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

I suppose I will obey the suggestion of Zato Ichi... and not feed the troll despite my intense desires to do so.... holding back, h o l d i n g b a c k . . . okay there.... breathing hard

Some really awesome questions were raised in the early part of the thread and I'd love to address those instead.

Quote:
Mike Logan wrote:
I've wondered, and I'll wonder again, whether men are generally easy, and therefore less apt to observe abuse, or we observe it, and ignore it out of some role we've been dealt, or a mix of both.

I loved this question... because I've considered the difference between the sexes question a lot lately. I am a woman and I teach 12-14 year-olds daily. I have observed a marked difference in how boys and girls handle issues and problems that usually arise out of joking around. It has always seemed that the boys tend to either drop it immediately or choose to face the issue head-on more often than not. The girls tend to let things lie around longer, they don't mix-it-up. Some of them dwell on it and come to thier own solutions, while others let it fester until the situation has repeated a few times and then they blow up... usually at what were their best friends a few hours before. Now, obviously, I can't speak in absolutes... there are scrappy, fighter type girls and meditative, moody boys jumbled in there for good measure!

I don't think that the guys in a dojo are less sensitive nor do I think that ladies in a dojo are more sensitive... rather I notice a difference of "sensitivity technique". Women tend more toward contemplative coping. We'll ask questions when we're unsure, or (what I catch myself doing) slow down or even stop and observe a little. When in doubt we talk; usually with other women, not because we want to be secretive or we're embarrassed but because it just may be more comfortable.

The guys I've trained with (and again I'm writing from my humble, non-male POV) usually just train and if you're doing something that isn't right (be it a technique-needing-correction or outright abuse) they'll confront it. You hear about it right away, or at least as soon as it is noticed (we all need process time).

As a kind of difference between the sexes point of reference I offer my little (?) story....

I was always the biggest kid in class until I got to high school. Rather an interesting position for a growing girl. I got some of the same messages from my folks about playing nice and being a little more gentle a) because I was a young lady and b) because when we rough-housed somebody other than me usually got hurt.
Fast forward to my grown-up self learning my first lessons in aikido. "No, you throw a punch like this." It was an odd experience! I had never been asked to train these kind of overtly "agressive" movements, in fact, I can remember being told never to do that (from a mom and dad who lived during women's lib supportive but not active). I had to overcome some feeling of wrongness with it. Was it major? No, but it was learning. And the first time sensei did a breakfall from a technique I did... whoo but I learned to be okay with that too. Mostly how I learned was by talking to the other females in the dojo... I asked them if this learning felt a little weird to them too. The answer was generally yes. That made me feel more normal and that concerned little voice in my head went away. Sometimes that learning doesn't happen or rather the comfort level never comes and then the female leaves... was it necessarily abusive, no. Do the guys pick up on it? Maybe not. Is that wrong? IMO, no just different technique.
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Old 07-03-2005, 09:50 AM   #73
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Very nice story Elizabeth, thanks for that.
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 07-04-2005, 06:47 AM   #74
makuchg
 
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Building on what Elizabeth wrote, my wife and I worked with troubled teens in the late 1990's. You are absolutely right about how boys and girls process emotions. Boys are very direct (in general) and girls tend to bottle up until they explode. If two boys were upset, they usually had it out and were done while girls would fester until the issues "explodes" on the whole house.

Gregory Makuch
Wandering Ronin
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Old 07-04-2005, 10:34 AM   #75
aikigirl10
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Re: Spreading this wonderful budo

Im extremely disgusted and angered by this story. Aikido as defined by O'Sensei , is the art of peace. It really makes me mad that any sensei would even dare hurt someone intentionally and then sexually harrass someone. It really p!sses me off. I agree w/pretty much everyone else is saying that u need to leave that dojo soon and never go back . And yes 120 dollars is ridiculous , for my dojo its only $35 and we practice 3 times a week. You and your gal pal are getting ripped off and you are not being taught the compassionate aikido that i have always known and loved.

Just thought i'd state my opinion.
-paige
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