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Old 06-29-2005, 10:25 AM   #51
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Well, suffice to say...if you get whacked "unexpectedly" you need to train harder.

IMO
Suffice it to say, I have been training for twenty years in many arts, and my teachers have been training hard in all the things they do. And they still get caught by surprise.

Suffice it to say that if you're standard of excellence is you never get caught by surprise, then by your definition, no one in any art meets your standard. Which has no other value than making you feel good about yourself .... until you get caught by surprise.
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Old 06-29-2005, 10:54 AM   #52
jonreading
 
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Re: Is aikido dying?

I have noticed that many pre-war aikido shihan tend to express disappointment in the lack of competence is perfomring aikido combat. Shioda Sensei made more vocal comments about this aspect of training, but he wasn't the only one. All of the early aikidoka were competent (in some cases, extremely competent) martial artists.

I do think that many aikido people lack the competence to defend themselves from physical assault. If the mark of a good martial artist is physical fighting skills, then that is cause for concern. Is that the mark of a good aikido person though? If the number of good aikido people is declining, them I would argue that aikido is having difficulty. But is difficulty the same as dying?

I do think that fighting competence is important to a thriving martial art. I do think that the standards of competency are slipping to make way for social aikido (aikido that is not fighting-oriented). Is that bad? I don't know.
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Old 06-29-2005, 01:58 PM   #53
Adam Alexander
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Suffice it to say, I have been training for twenty years in many arts, and my teachers have been training hard in all the things they do. And they still get caught by surprise.

Suffice it to say that if you're standard of excellence is you never get caught by surprise, then by your definition, no one in any art meets your standard. Which has no other value than making you feel good about yourself .... until you get caught by surprise.
Hmmm, Kohei, Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere and Shioda seem to agree with me.

Whatever.
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Old 06-29-2005, 06:47 PM   #54
Adam Alexander
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Re: Is aikido dying?

whoops, Tohei
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Old 06-30-2005, 01:26 AM   #55
CNYMike
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Hmmm, Kohei, Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere and Shioda seem to agree with me.
I never read that book (although the title rings a bell). But my expreiences with my Kali instructors suggests the "unable to surprie" pinacle is something few, if anybody, can reach. Nor do I go for the idea that whatever else a martial artist has achieved, if they are caught off guard once, they fall short of the mark. Just MHO. As you say, "Whatever."
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Old 06-30-2005, 04:19 AM   #56
CarlRylander
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Is Aikido dying?

I sincereley hope not! I'm thinking of taking it up in the next year!

I understand what you mean about the 'dance-like' moves though.
I don't know an awful lot about the practical side, yet, but I think Aikido should be practical and realistic, using Aikido as a real means of self defence, but should stay true to the philosophy of minimum harm to your opponent and less senseless violence.
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Old 06-30-2005, 02:07 PM   #57
Adam Alexander
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
I never read that book (although the title rings a bell). But my expreiences with my Kali instructors suggests the "unable to surprie" pinacle is something few, if anybody, can reach. Nor do I go for the idea that whatever else a martial artist has achieved, if they are caught off guard once, they fall short of the mark. Just MHO. As you say, "Whatever."
As I understand it, it's a pretty well known test. The instructor whacks you in the chest to check your progress. If you're surprised, you've failed.
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Old 06-30-2005, 02:16 PM   #58
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
I never read that book (although the title rings a bell). But my expreiences with my Kali instructors suggests the "unable to surprise" pinacle is something few, if anybody, can reach.
It's pretty easy to do if you're paranoid, though. One of my best instructors (from mainland China) stressed that you should get in the habit of knowing where everyone is automatically and always being aware of where their off-balance directions are. It's a different mindset entirely.

FWIW

Mike

Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
I'm schizophrenic
and so am I.
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Old 06-30-2005, 02:43 PM   #59
Adam Alexander
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
It's pretty easy to do if you're paranoid, though. One of my best instructors (from mainland China) stressed that you should get in the habit of knowing where everyone is automatically and always being aware of where their off-balance directions are.
Yeah right, I wish all it took was being paranoid...I'd probably pass the test next time I get it

I like the advice he gave you. However, I don't think it would help for that test...he's saying "be aware," however, the whack comes when you're not aware. I think it's more of a subliminal test...seeing how deeply the technique is imbedded.
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Old 06-30-2005, 03:39 PM   #60
Mike Sigman
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
However, I don't think it would help for that test...he's saying "be aware," however, the whack comes when you're not aware.
Yeah.... doesn't this sound an awful lot like Inspector Clouseau and his Japanese houseboy hiding in the refrigerator, behind doors, etc.?

Mike
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Old 06-30-2005, 04:53 PM   #61
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is aikido dying?

I don't know the origin of this, so this may be apocryphal, but I've been told that OSensei once told somebody that he still lose his balance/center; its just that he regained it so fast it didn't matter. Makes sense to me.

Janet Rosen
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Old 06-30-2005, 09:32 PM   #62
CNYMike
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
As I understand it, it's a pretty well known test. The instructor whacks you in the chest to check your progress. If you're surprised, you've failed.
I never heard of it before today, nor have any of the Aikido teachers I've had ever done anything like that to "check my progress." Where did you hear of this?
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Old 07-01-2005, 12:08 PM   #63
Adam Alexander
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
I never heard of it before today, nor have any of the Aikido teachers I've had ever done anything like that to "check my progress." Where did you hear of this?
I had it done to me once...I failed

I read about it in Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, in something by Tohei, I'm pretty certain I read about it in something by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, and I'm also pretty certain I read it in one Shioda's books.

You might find that being dedicated to Aikido would yield more info.
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Old 07-01-2005, 12:09 PM   #64
Adam Alexander
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Yeah.... doesn't this sound an awful lot like Inspector Clouseau and his Japanese houseboy hiding in the refrigerator, behind doors, etc.?

Mike
LOL. That's hilarious.
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Old 07-02-2005, 11:19 AM   #65
CNYMike
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
I had it done to me once...I failed

I read about it in Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, in something by Tohei, I'm pretty certain I read about it in something by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, and I'm also pretty certain I read it in one Shioda's books.
It might be something higher level, then, because I'm with the newer people and nothing like that has happened so far.

Quote:
You might find that being dedicated to Aikido would yield more info.
Now who's getting personal?

I've been doing martial arts for twenty years, which is also how long I've been doing Japanese karate -- mainly shito-ryu, although from 1991 to 1994 I was at school in Maine so I studied Shotokan from a teacher who also had a belt in TKD and knew some Chinese forms. I first did Kali in 1997 and have been studying it continuously since 1998. I started Tai Chi with my mother in 2000, and I'm still at it even though she passed away two years ago. I first did Seidokan Aikido from 1986 to 1988, and retained an interest in Aikido after quitting, finally getting back into it last year, and I have no intention of quitting it. I've also been exposed to Western Fencing and Boxing.

If that's not "dedicated" to you, fine, I guess I must be a slacker. But I look at the time I am putting in at what I'm doing and don't see that at all.
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Old 07-02-2005, 12:46 PM   #66
Adam Alexander
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Now who's getting personal?
Wasn't intended to be personal, just realistic. Why would you expect to know so much more than another when you're really not into the art of that other?
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Old 07-02-2005, 01:40 PM   #67
markwalsh
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Re: Is aikido dying?

What isn't developing is dying.

Certain parts of the aikido community are growing (not necessarily in size) - the rest are dying.
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Old 07-02-2005, 02:15 PM   #68
Ketsan
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
I never read that book (although the title rings a bell). But my expreiences with my Kali instructors suggests the "unable to surprie" pinacle is something few, if anybody, can reach. Nor do I go for the idea that whatever else a martial artist has achieved, if they are caught off guard once, they fall short of the mark. Just MHO. As you say, "Whatever."
I don't think it's something that comes with dojo training either or at least extreamly rarely with dojo training. It's the kind of thing that has as much to do with your personality and envoironment as your training in my opinion.
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Old 07-03-2005, 12:58 PM   #69
CNYMike
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Wasn't intended to be personal, just realistic. Why would you expect to know so much more than another when you're really not into the art of that other?
Ok, in the first place, I don't claim to know more about Aikido than anyone else. I've only been back for a year, and in spite of having kept the Aiki-taiso wrist stretches in my personal workout, I'm back at zero because my current sensei does things differently from my last one, who was (and is?) in Seidokan. LaCoste Inosanto Kali (and the digressions and asides Guro Kevin Seaman and Guro Andy Astle) tend to make during their classes have given me "the big picture" of martial arts techniques and I see where Aikido slots into that, but as to Aikido itself, I'm new at it and admit it.

In the second place, I am somewhat offended by your claim that I am "really not into" it. If the only way for you to consider someone "really into" Aikido is that they don't do anything else, fine, think that, but IMHO, I would not have got back into it at all if at some level I hadn't been "into" it. You don't have a positive opinion of crosstraining, fine, but don't you tell me what I am or am not into. I will tell you what I am or am not into. As it is, Aikido is the only art I got into after I'd read about without an external factor adding a push (at least initially, in 1986).

In the third place, I do not know how much I will learn about Aikido over the long haul, but I am in it for the long haul. It may be only once a week while I do other classes on the other nights, but I have no intentionn of quitting anytime soon. I may be in it for 25 more years or 25 more days, but I plan to stay with it. What will I get out of it? I don't know. But I doubt I won't get anything out of it; that's impossible.
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Old 07-03-2005, 03:03 PM   #70
Adam Alexander
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Re: Is aikido dying?

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
In the second place, I am somewhat offended by your claim that I am "really not into" it. If the only way for you to consider someone "really into" Aikido is that they don't do anything else, fine, think that, but IMHO, I would not have got back into it at all if at some level I hadn't been "into" it.
Then it's settled. We have different opinions of what being seriously into an art is.
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