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Old 07-31-2001, 12:45 PM   #1
Greg Jennings
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Ushiro Ryotedori Iriminage Ki no Nagare

Last night at the end of class we practiced ushiro ryotedori iriminage ki no nagare. I don't remember ever having done this technique before.

In this version, nage doesn't let uke catch the second hand. Uke ends up with both his and nage's arm around his neck/face; like "the scarf" iriminage version that one does vs. yokomenuchi.

The timing and the coordination of hand and foot work seemed excruitiatingly critical.

Myers Sensei was nailing it after just a couple of iterations. I never _consistently_ got it right.

I think this will make a very fine training exercise.

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 07-31-2001, 01:44 PM   #2
Erik
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Re: Ushiro Ryotedori Iriminage Ki no Nagare

Hi Greg!

I got a chuckle out of this as it illustrates how differently some folks go about this stuff. The first time I visited the local Iwama dojo the instructor taught a similar movement only with a kokyu throw. Felt like I was home as it's one of my favorite movements, whereas the locals looked liked they'd never even seen the movement before.

I'd guess that our kyu ranks down to 4th or 5th kyu would be comfortable with this sort of movement (I guarantee the finish would be sloppy in some cases). Conversely, we have 2nd kyus who can barely do morote dori kokyu ho (I'm probably sloppy by Iwama standards) and I once watched a 3rd kyu puzzle over the phrase "tai no henko".

What's really sad to me is that I can't seem to get the 2 dojos together. It would so clearly benefit both sides as they bring such very specific competencies to the table that the other seems to lack at certain levels.

Yes, I am campaigning should anyone I know read this.

Last edited by Erik : 07-31-2001 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 07-31-2001, 01:59 PM   #3
lt-rentaroo
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Hello Greg!


I understand where you're coming from. I remember practicing this technique at a seminar with Shihan Toyoda several years ago. It took a while to get my feet to cooperate with my brain. Personally, I'm more akin to allowing uke to grasp my second hand (and then me grasping uke's hand). And well, you can do pretty much anything from there. It was good hearing from you, please tell Sensei Myers I said hello. Train Well!!

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 07-31-2001, 02:54 PM   #4
guest1234
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Are you talking about the one where nage steps back, then forward, then back, then forward again with same foot? If so, it's one of my favorites because you only have to know two steps using one foot
The first Saito Sensei seminar I attended (a few months of [non-Iwama] Aikido under my new white belt), I was soooo worried about not knowing much about Iwama-style other than 'hold tight' and that all the Iwama students I knew were three times my size. At one point he demonstrated an ushiroryokatatori technique that the whitebelts in my dojo irrevertly called 'the airplane technique' and my heart jumped for joy that I actually might know one. As I met up with the Iwama blackbelts I knew later they were talking about that technique, and I chimed in with my 'airplane technique!' as they watched me go through the steps, proud I knew one. My enthusiasm was maybe dampened for a few moments when I realized they were wondering where that one came from, that they did not consider it a 'standard'. Hmmm, could it be that all the original students actually ARE doing the same Aikido, we just have to watch longer to see it?
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Old 07-31-2001, 09:53 PM   #5
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
Are you talking about the one where nage steps back, then forward, then back, then forward again with same foot?
Nope. Ushiro RyoTEdori ki no nagare. Not ushiro ryoKATAdori (of which I know at least three major variations: no arms in, one arm and head in, both arms and head in).

I believe there are at least of five steps (foot movement steps).

From a fluid grabbing start from the 45 deg. grab one wrist and run quickly around behind nage and attempt to grap the other.

While maintaining extension with the grabbed hand, nage leads uke with the hand he is chasing. He makes at least two foot movements while doing this.

Continuing to maintain extension/kokyu rokyu, nage raises the grabbed arm as if raising a bokken. He takes another step in the same direction while doing so. Specifically, his inside foot steps close to his outside foot. Third foot movement.

He steps his inside foot to uke's rear and takes his inside/non-grabbed hand through that "door". His inside foot is now his outside foot. Fourth foot movement.

The outside/grabbed hand stays in tight and goes right past uke's outside ear.

While doing this, nage steps forward with what his now his inside foot and it becomes an ordinary iriminage. Fifth foot movement.

Sheesh, that's hard and I bet no one follows it anyway.

At any rate, the point at which nage reverses the direction of his turning which is also the point that he is raising his grabbed hand clear of his head and tring to keep it tight, maintain extension, etc. is where I'm losing the timing.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 08-01-2001, 01:16 PM   #6
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
At any rate, the point at which nage reverses the direction of his turning which is also the point that he is raising his grabbed hand clear of his head and tring to keep it tight, maintain extension, etc. is where I'm losing the timing.

Regards,
Have you ever tried humming a song while doing your practice? Better yet, bring some music into the dojo. Jazz works fairly well but I've seen a number of different tunes used. My personal favorite is a Todd Rundgren song but don't ask me why.

Music will help turn off your logical mind which is what I believe is causing you grief. Clearly you understand the movement, so now the trick is to get you out of the way so your body can do what it probably knows how to do.

We do this all the time, but we're probably a bit wierd.

Last edited by Erik : 08-01-2001 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 08-01-2001, 05:29 PM   #7
guest1234
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I understood that it was katate, not kata. Let's say nage is starting in left hamni. Perhaps if uke is really racing at you there would be a slight movement of the right foot back and to the right side first (and so involve both feet, rats) but to my simple mind it would be
a. bring your left foot back while turning your hips to the left, leading uke to grab your left wrist and increase his speed to get around behind. b. as uke is trying to pass behind, step with your left foot forward again and turn the hips back to right while raising your left hand. At this point uke is more or less in front of you with your left hand leading him. b(1) again, depending on uke's speed a slight position adjustment might be needed with the right foot, but hardly a step c. step back with your left foot leading uke as in the more often seen versions of irimi nage d. step forward with your left foot and throw. so you're right, maybe tiny little steps with your right foot, but depending on how uke is moving not really. guess we're talking about a different technique. for this one the timing is most important---I think?--in the step forward the first time (as uke passes behind) but then i don't get much of this, so I guess I should just go get to class
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Old 08-02-2001, 08:48 AM   #8
Magma
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Um, I'm not sure I followed what Greg was describing, but I did understand what Colleen was describing. In fact, that is the technique that I pictured when I first read the thread name... though in the nomenclature system that I come from, it would not include the "ki no nagare." What is that?

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 08-02-2001, 09:45 AM   #9
Aikilove
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magma
"ki no nagare." What is that?
Ki = Ki, no - with, nagare - flow

Or something like flowing movement, dynamic movement. Usually imply the opposit of static i.e. Uke stands a step (or more) from Nage and takes the step in order to reach Nages (hands in this case). Nage never stops the momentum uke comes with but uses it and completes the hole movement in one flowing motion. Correct me if I'm wrong guys and gals!

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 08-02-2001, 10:36 AM   #10
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
While maintaining extension with the grabbed hand, nage leads uke with the hand he is chasing. He makes at least two foot movements while doing this.
Maybe this is a stylistic thing but this doesn't look right to me upon rereading. I was taught that you enter in behind uke for the initial blend. In other words, one step with the outside foot in behind them which you should be able to do if you gotten some lead with the grabbed hand. You can also atemi to the ribs at this point encouraging them to move. This should buy you the time you need to get under the arm. I think you are probably keeping the move too tight if I'm reading your steps correctly.

On the footwork. Using my imaginary uke I got it down to:

Step behind uke (or as close as you can) with outside foot
pivot 180 degrees
raise arm and pivot 180 degrees back
drop arm and do irimi nage with however many steps you need. I managed it with none.

But I also noticed I did the following:
Step behind uke
Step again completing the 2 step
raise the grabbed arm and step forward with the same foot

A bunch of variations showed up here including a step off angle with the other foot, once I didn't step, and once I stepped again with the foot on the grabbed hand. It all depended on the mood of my imaginary uke.

Next, just what does the pinky do when you are attacked with a shomen uchi by a screaming gazelle?

Jakob, that's better than I'd have done. I've always just taken it to mean flowing movement.
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Old 08-02-2001, 06:09 PM   #11
Aikilove
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Quote:
Next, just what does the pinky do when you are attacked with a shomen uchi by a screaming gazelle?
Run?

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 08-02-2001, 06:12 PM   #12
Aikilove
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aikilove


Run?
Correction! Step of the line! and then Run!

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 08-02-2001, 06:26 PM   #13
Kestrel
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Cool Screaming Gazelle

Quote:
Originally posted by Aikilove


Correction! Step of the line! and then Run!
Step off of the line and run back to the Land Rover!

Then take carefull aim and have roast gazelle for dinner
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Old 08-02-2001, 06:46 PM   #14
Aikilove
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Re: Screaming Gazelle

Quote:
Originally posted by Kestrel


Step off of the line and run back to the Land Rover!

Then take carefull aim and have roast gazelle for dinner
LOL! Nothing for all you vegies out there!

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 08-02-2001, 07:23 PM   #15
guest1234
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Hey Jakob! Just when I was going to say something complimentary (whoa! from Colleen???) about your command of so many languages, you go and make a comment about vegetarians
OK, the gazelle is obviously an Aikidoka, and coming quickly at you, so you use your pinky and all other digits to clap twice so it sits down attentively. Then you share your salad with it.
Oh, and Erik, my imaginary uke Harvey is always in a great mood and attacks perfectly each time. Perhaps you should be nicer to yours although I guess you like the variety yours gives you...from your technique description, I'd almost bet you're from an ASU dojo...

Last edited by guest1234 : 08-02-2001 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 08-02-2001, 11:59 PM   #16
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
Oh, and Erik, my imaginary uke Harvey is always in a great mood and attacks perfectly each time. Perhaps you should be nicer to yours although I guess you like the variety yours gives you...from your technique description, I'd almost bet you're from an ASU dojo...
So close! But alas, NOT!

Actually, I had, and maybe even still do have an ASU membership card.

Pause for some soothing music while Erik checks if he still has his membership card.

do...wa...ditte...dum...ditte...do....

Yep, still got it. I was a member for a very, very short period of time. Long enough for them to get my check though. My influences lay elsewhere for that technique.

I have, however, been in an ASU dojo this month along with an Iwama dojo a non-branded Aikikai dojo and even a Tomiki dojo. Those Tomiki folks are really strange though. They not only put the wrong feet forward in a lot of places but I'm convinced they drive on the wrong side of the road.

Quote:
Oh, and Erik, my imaginary uke Harvey is always in a great mood and attacks perfectly each time. Perhaps you should be nicer to yours
My instructor went through an imaginary uke phase and one night he said to imagine yourself as the uke. Yikes! He was the worst one.

Last edited by Erik : 08-03-2001 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 08-03-2001, 05:25 AM   #17
Aikilove
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Quote:
Originally posted by ca
Hey Jakob! Just when I was going to say something complimentary (whoa! from Colleen???) about your command of so many languages, you go and make a comment about vegetarians
OK, the gazelle is obviously an Aikidoka, and coming quickly at you, so you use your pinky and all other digits to clap twice so it sits down attentively. Then you share your salad with it.
Oh... Darn! To bad I missed a compliment... specially from you But I have myself to blame. I have a vegitarian ladyfiend so I guess I'm too used making jokes about it and get away with it... NOT!

Btw "command of so many languages"? As far as I know the only languages I command are Swedish, English, (German, and Russian).... Ok ok enough said

Jakob Blomquist
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Old 08-03-2001, 03:32 PM   #18
guest1234
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Careful Erik, visiting so many different style dojos and even a call to mingle earlier this post...you might be seen as a radical trying to unite the various styles
and will ONE of you guys who makes all those green faces tell me how to do it? or at least how to make a little green guy who sticks out his tongue? PLEEEEEAAAASE?
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Old 08-03-2001, 03:55 PM   #19
lt-rentaroo
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Colleen,

Beside the box that you type your reply in there should be another box that has the different types of "smiley faces" you can add to your post. At the end of a sentence, all you need to do is "click" on the smiley face that you want
Of course, you may need to adjust your personal profile settings to the "smilies are on" setting.

I hope that I've helped. Have a good day


p.s. You can also make a "little green smiley with his / her tongue sticking out" by typing a ":" followed directly by a "p"

Last edited by lt-rentaroo : 08-03-2001 at 03:59 PM.

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 08-03-2001, 05:02 PM   #20
guest1234
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Thank you, Louis!!! I had a bunch of little faces here, but I guess there's a limit, and I was sent back to edit it
But look, I can make funny faces now, too
you've created a monster....
oh boy, a new toy....
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Old 08-03-2001, 05:11 PM   #21
lt-rentaroo
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Colleen,

I'm glad I was able to help

Have a good day

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 08-03-2001, 05:16 PM   #22
guest1234
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Hey, when I changed my signature, the computer went back through all my posts and changed those from the past...too bad present corrections don't do that for past mistakes in life....
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Old 08-06-2001, 10:22 PM   #23
Stuart
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Its easy to chat all these rubbish words, but hows your fighting in the real world?

Lets just TALK about fighting. No real fighting.
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Old 08-06-2001, 10:35 PM   #24
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stuart
Its easy to chat all these rubbish words, but hows your fighting in the real world?

Lets just TALK about fighting. No real fighting.
This reminds me of a quote my grandfather was fond of:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

Cheers!

Greg Jennings
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