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Old 05-07-2005, 05:20 PM   #26
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
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Re: Ueshiba Dodging Bullets?

Quote:
Mitch Kuntz wrote:
I don't think in the area of techniques Aikido is much different than other arts, it just has a very specialized philosophy and training method.
I don't know much about philosophy, but it seems to me that there are a pretty wide variety of training methods out there, none of which are unique to aikido.

Sean
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Old 05-07-2005, 05:24 PM   #27
takusan
Dojo: Canterbury Aikido Club
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Re: Ueshiba Dodging Bullets?

I would like to agree with the sentiment in the post by David Valadez.

Within it, is a whole heap of sound, rationale. (That I also share)

What I will do though, is not be restricted by it, as I must allow for the fact that there is a possibility that there is more to our collective existence than just our own personal experiences. Obvious really.
What others have experienced are just that, - others experiences.

We are human, we were made imperfect.
It is our function in life to become more.

Dave H
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Old 05-07-2005, 06:32 PM   #28
kironin
 
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Re: Ueshiba Dodging Bullets?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
I'm all about reality. I love to test stuff out. I also believe there is likely a little truth in all stories. I like the gun story because I have had experiences that seem similar to this. I have seen Koichi Tohei deal very badly with 1 untrained American camera man, this, and my knowledge of what Judoka are like to deal with make me think the Tohei story isn't very accurate. I think lots of things O-sensei dose are not all that great, I don't like his sword cuts for example, but I do think the man had a grasp of things most of us are not in touch with. I think Tohei had lots of neat things to say as well, but fighting 5 skilled judoka at once and winning-likely no.

"I have seen..."
oh, you were there? You know the circumstances ?
Some of the old guard that was in Hawaii and California, that trained in Judo extensively and later started Aikido because of Tohei Sensei are still alive.

Both events have eye witnesses that were there and were very impressed. Both events have plausible scenarios. Clearly these events happened.

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Old 05-07-2005, 11:23 PM   #29
Charles Hill
Dojo: Numazu Aikikai/Aikikai Honbu Dojo
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Re: Ueshiba Dodging Bullets?

The dodging bullets story is totally believable. In college, I dodged several. There was this girl I barely knew, except in the biblical sense if you know what I mean. She told me, " I`m late." And I said, "No, you`re just on time." And she said, "No, you idiot! I`m LATE!" And a couple of days later, it turned out that she was just late. Dodged that bullet! And then there was the time of a routine traffic stop to let me know about a broken tail light. I had a certain herbal substance laying out visible to all and the peace officer somehow managed to not see it. Dodged that bullet!

Charles
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Old 05-08-2005, 12:53 AM   #30
senshincenter
 
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Re: Ueshiba Dodging Bullets?

Hilarious!

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 05-08-2005, 09:49 AM   #31
JayRhone
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Confused Re: Ueshiba Dodging Bullets?

LMAO. Yeah gee whiz, haven't you people seen the matrix?! Just about anyone can dodge a normal persons bullet, watch out for those agents though. But seriously, IMHO I really do believe O' Sensei dodged bullets. I have been reading ALOT of aikido and MA based books lately and I can't remember exactly what book but I remember O' Sensei said that when you become one with the universe a moment can be the same as/ like an eternity. It was something like that. If you look at being shot at as one moment and as an eternity then moving out of the way and 25 meters is not difficult. Now I don't believe that he could say, move thousands of feet or meters in a second or two, but someone who can control their energy as O' sensei was reportedly able to do could sure span a second out to a good long while. Long enough to say evade many men, or a bullet. Because after all, we are just made up of energy, every last single molecule, energy. Because energy is one thing that is as fast as light, for energy to move out of a bullets path is absolutely nothing. Ki is described as breathing energy, and as corney as this sounds we just need to attune ourselves to listen to it. It's like when you try to listen to the intentions as mentioned above we start to hear what our energy is saying.
And to all those non-believers (sorry, bout to get a tad religious) Do you believe in god or at least some form of deity? Most people do. So you believe in someone all powerful, someone made the world and us and everything in it? If he were to come down and visit earth do you think he could just stop a bullet in it's tracks? or walk on water or turn water into alcohol, or heal dead people. But where is all the evedence you would need to prove a bullet could be stopped in mid air or water is as stable as a standing platform or H20 can turn into an alcohol or dead people can just stand up after you say a few words? You would just believe wouldn't you? Why is it so hard to believe that someone can become so attuned to the world and everything around them that they can move themselves out of the way of a violent encounter, in this case a bullet. I think most everyone would agree that had a bullet hit O' Sensei he wouldn't have been able to stop it, but rather, it would have gone through him.
I think the aikido community should take a moment and think about if O' Sensei had dodged a bullet in this manner as reported he did, how did he do it? By doing exactly as he taught, be one with the universe, center, enter and blend (turn, don't push or pull)
Just my two cents,
-Jay

Be the water, not the rock
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Old 05-08-2005, 10:16 AM   #32
senshincenter
 
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Re: Ueshiba Dodging Bullets?

Wow - comparing Osensei to God or at least comparing our belief in Osensei's "miracles" to our belief in God.

For a lot of folks, myself included, God isn't really some kind of genie and so the presence or lack of magic isn't really relative to matters of faith and practice. The same goes for how Osensei relates to our training.

Still, before things take this turn in the thread, let me point out:

How many times have I been hit in the head by a student I've told to really try and hit me with their bokken? None (though most have 50 to 100 lbs on a young Chiba and way more hours with sword training than he at that time)

How many times have I felt the urge to and/or actually flew off the handle in anger at my students? None

How many times have I been unable to express myself to my deshi through expedient means? None

How many times have I supported delusional racist and/or nationalistic polices? None

Etc.

Am I more in union with the Center of the Universe? Am I more comparable to God? PLEASE. Not.

This is why I wanted to ask that question earlier on: Why are Osensei's "miracles" important to one's training?" What do such things do for us and why?

Let us note that the first post had the following line:

"If I thought that these were lies, why would anyone want to bow to this man."

This kind of sentiment is not all that uncommon - even here in this thread. In fact, I would suggest that if you were to count every single aikidoka everywhere and for all times, you probably would have more folks holding such a sentiment (in one way or another) than not. But what does it do for one's training? Is it really capable of serving our training well or serving us well in our training?

My answer: No way.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 05-09-2005, 07:09 AM   #33
JayRhone
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Re: Ueshiba Dodging Bullets?

Quote:
comparing Osensei to God or at least comparing our belief in Osensei's "miracles" to our belief in God.
Look at it from a point of view of someone who doesn't believe in God. Let me clear that I by no means mean to offend anyone, it is mearly a point brought about by looking at something almost everyone can relate to. IMHO I don't view that as a comparison but rather something someone can ask ones self. I wrote what has been reported in your bible and asked if you believe in it and then asked if you believe in what O' sensei did. I am merly trying to bring it into a new kind of light (different point of view). Away from, 'well nobody today can jump out of the way of a bullet', to something that as simply as moving out of a bullets path isn't so hard to belive. Because really, if you look at that next to a story of someone shot up by a gang or something then you proly won't accept the story but if you put it next to someone, well you get the picture. Again I hope I haven't offended, that isn't my intention.
I hope people realize that there is more than one power in the universe, not all of it can be measured, if it's god's power, ki, energy, whatever I hope all can keep an open mind and accept that no one is the same and there are many many ways to reach the top of a mountain. again, my two cents
-Jay

Be the water, not the rock
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Old 05-13-2005, 09:15 PM   #34
Justin Gaar
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Re: Ueshiba Dodging Bullets?

Quote:
I hope people realize that there is more than one power in the universe, not all of it can be measured, if it's god's power, ki, energy, whatever I hope all can keep an open mind and accept that no one is the same
Your right everyone is different, in beliefs in all different kinds of devine powers and saints abound. However this is more then a mere science or art. Ueshiba in some way, I believe, had the ability to attain a high state of conciousness then we do as normal human beings. This may seem completely insane to some and may make sense to others. But O' Sensei put many years of his life into training with that other master (omm he was a master of something something ryu) hehe, sorry don't remember. Anyway, Ueshiba spent much time with this man and studied in his style of martial arts. Additionally on top of starting and maintaining a style, even after his style was almost outlawed by the local japanese government he still managed to train regularly. He trained for many many years on an intensity scale that some of us can hardly imagine. His ability to do things that some would consider impossible is very real.

If you arrest a mime, do you have tell him he has the right to remain silent?
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Old 05-16-2005, 04:33 PM   #35
Ketsan
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Re: Ueshiba Dodging Bullets?

We've not had a chance to see if our Sensei can dodge bullets.

It's on the list though.

He said he wanted to be kept on his toes.
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Old 05-18-2005, 08:10 AM   #36
ikkitosennomusha
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Re: Ueshiba Dodging Bullets?

I think it is possible to percieve events. What I mean is, I do not think that one can dodge a bullet from the initial pull of the trigger as it would be impossible to clear the trajectory. What I do believe that through hard training and especially with expereince one can "read minds" in the sense that percieveing an event is the key to dodging the conflict. Sometimes it only takes a split second to realize what is about to happen and you training alows you to react accordingly.

Now in the case of O'sensei, I cannot comment. He claims to see the gold ball or something like that and then reacted. Does this mean than he "envisioned" the gold ball or "actually" seen it? I do not know. Perhaps someone who has read about this can clarify. This is interesting.
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Old 05-18-2005, 08:57 AM   #37
LawrenceBrindisi
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Re: Ueshiba Dodging Bullets?

Greetings to my fellow aikidokas!

as per this issue... i don't think it's much of our concern whether or not O Sensei really dodged bullets... the important thing is, i believe, that we give him respect and we believe his teachings cuz otherwise, we would not be here practicing his teachings.


on the other hand... have u heard of this story where a fellow martial artist (from another art, of course) visited his dojo with a plan of testing his skills by giving a surprise attack the moment O Sensei welcomed his greeting and bow?

the story goes as when this fellow did as planned, O Sensei, to his students' surprise, refused to welcome the guest by not returning the former's bowing. when the fellow realized that Great Teacher somehow anticipated his plan and won over him through this, remained bowed down and conceded to O Sensei's skill and abjectly apologized. only then when O Sensei answered his greetings and bowed to him.

what i want to implicate is that however fantastic the issue regarding the bullet-dodging... i still believe that O Sensei really has this blessing of wisdom for us, his students, to follow and aspire upon...

hanggang sa muli mga kapatid sa AIKIDO!!! pagpalain kayo ng Maykapal!

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Old 05-18-2005, 09:24 AM   #38
jester
 
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Re: Ueshiba Dodging Bullets?

Where did you hear this story?
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Old 05-19-2005, 09:43 AM   #39
theflyingheadbuttsuplex
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Tongue Re: Ueshiba Dodging Bullets?

Quote:
Dan Herak wrote:
Maybe, but human reaction time, even for someone very highly trained is slower. Nerve impulses must travel to the brain, communicate the information to the brain, the brain must process it and then send out the information to other body parts as to what to do, and this information must then be translated into concrete action by the body.

There are other problems with the story besides this. According to the legend, Ueshiba did not simply dodge the bullets but appeared behind the marksmen who were firing. Could the man run 200 miles per hour? Forgive for being more than a bit sceptical.

Haha! I don't blame you for being skeptical!! I don't know anyone that could could be in amatuer drag races races without a car.
But this legend was probably tweaked a fair amount, and the guns, like many othters had said, were primitive.

If there is no wind, row!
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Old 05-19-2005, 11:25 AM   #40
akiy
 
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Re: Ueshiba Dodging Bullets?

I have translated the first-person account that Gozo Shioda sensei wrote of what happened in the first link I gave above:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...8680#post48680

In it, I wrote the following:
Quote:
To clarify, I hope I said "Olympic level" marksman as that's the term Shioda sensei used in his book. These folks were actually people who tested guns and rifles to determine whether the bullets veered off at all. As Shioda sensei writes (translated from the Japanese by me), "Their skill at shooting was at the Olympic level. When I watched them, they really did hit the target a hundred times out of the hundred so I was totally surprised."
A lot more of my own thoughts about this incident are in the post located at the url above.

Hope that helps,

-- Jun

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