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Old 05-18-2005, 05:37 PM   #26
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Staying soft.

I hate this medium!!! Or I hate my ability to make myself clear! hahaha eather way...

-Chris Hein
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Old 05-18-2005, 06:16 PM   #27
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Staying soft.

Quote:
Tim Jester wrote:
Uke plays an important role in this, and he has to know what reaction is appropriate for the technique your working on.
Of course, this is in kata, which is a prearranged learning tool. Eventually you must learn to feel and be sensitive to human actions to recover their balance. It is actually very predictable since we're bipeds. Through the connection (ki musubi) we know what our uke is doing and where they'll step next and we fit our waza to those recovery actions. This is why training systems need a "feedback loop" that is not programmed. Randori or sparring serves this purpose. Randori in my mind means to take something of form out of chaos.

Staying connected, making intuitive, creative decisions on the go while controlling the initiative and taking part in waza that solves problems is juicy practice.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 05-18-2005, 06:52 PM   #28
DustinAcuff
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Re: Staying soft.

Chris, I cant say for certian that unless uke and nage are attacking full speed that you will be happy, but it could be the way we are communicating. If you are intrested I am in Visalia, about 40 min south of Fresno, and could give you directions to us. I can't promise that you will be happy with what you see, but so far nobody has complained about the way we do things. If you are intrested/moderately intrested then send me an email, private message, or just post, and i'll give you any information that you want. We are reality based and have a number of officers/prison guards and sensei was a Marine, cop, and bouncer for the last 20 years, so we get top notch training.

One thing to keep in mind, resistance has unexpected consequences, everything from nage falling on uke.
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Old 05-18-2005, 08:53 PM   #29
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Re: Staying soft.

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
Of course, this is in kata, which is a prearranged learning tool. Eventually you must learn to feel and be sensitive to human actions to recover their balance. It is actually very predictable since we're bipeds. Through the connection (ki musubi) we know what our uke is doing and where they'll step next and we fit our waza to those recovery actions. This is why training systems need a "feedback loop" that is not programmed. Randori or sparring serves this purpose. Randori in my mind means to take something of form out of chaos.
Your reading my mind Chuck!

Did you train in Houston? If so what type of randori were they doing back then? What you described is exactly what the randori I've done accomplishes. Randori and Kata both serve different functions, but are both a necessary part of training.

In my opinion without learning the kata, you will never fully understand the intricacies within the techniques. Without the randori, you won't learn to improvise and flow into things.
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Old 05-18-2005, 11:18 PM   #30
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Re: Staying soft.

Chris Hein wrote:
Quote:
...<snip>... By never practicing your technique against resistive opponents, you are short selling yourself. When you actually meet a resistive attack in real confrontation, you are likely to freeze up, and not respond, you will lose the "softness", that you've been training!
-Chris Hein
Chris,

From your post, I know you advocate resistant and vigour in one's MA training. This is a good Endeavour; however I think you are a lost puppy barking up the wrong tree.

Many folks here and millions of Aikido practitioner in this modern age are your average Joe and Joan who has got a regular 9 - 5 jobs. To train to be effective basing on your standards, mean they will have to do it full- time, professionally with proper coach etc. That is what the MMA fellows have at their disposal... full time and pro coach.

If you are such a big fan of MMA competition, there are specific MMA forum which you can find more like minded people to share your thoughts.

To be effective on the street is simple, train like you are fighting on a street. Having said that, such training is no fun, it is dangerous to a normal Joe and Joan whom injury means a loss to their livelihood/routine.

Think about the normal people, after a hard days work, dragging their tired ass off to a dojo is chore enough, asking them to do full contact type training? Such dojo will not be very attractive IMO... Let's talk reality here Chris, forget about your romantic notion of super-fighter wannabee attitude.

Being from a school which does not have competition, maybe you feel you have something missing in your MA pursuit, then try Tomiki-ryu. Those folks do contact full resistant randori competition. There is always something for everyone.

Quote:
So my question is why more Aikidoka don't practice against resistive attacks. Why is there not really any sparring* in Aikido
Because we don't have to. Folks who want to compete have so many different arts to choose from... Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, TKD, Karate etc... Some of us folks here see aikido as an avenue to study budo, some see it as a form of shugyo, personal development, a hobby, an alternate and healthy lifestyle to our mundane 9 -5 desk-job. So again, I reiterate, you are a lost puppy who is barking at the wrong tree. To make it clearer just in case you are not sure what I mean... there are MMA specific forum where you can find more like minded people like yourself.

An analogy: There are amateur guitarists who learn it to play for fun and for self satisfaction. There also pro guitarist who does it for a living like the legend Jimmy Hendrix. Maybe you want to be a Jimmy Hendrix in the MA way, which is fine. It should also be fine for people who want to only learn it for personal enjoyment. You can't criticize them for staying as amateur.

Just to digress, just recently one of my dojo lads, an 18 y/o, 160 cm, 50 kg young shodan successfully defeated three bullies/extortionist entirely on his own at school when those bullies tried to extort money from my dojo lad. He refused; they ganged up on him. He applied his dojo knowledge on that situation. When we asked him further... he said it was just like the routine san nin dori jiyu waza we do in our normal class. You said jiyu waza is an ineffective learning tool for street use? Think again.

Boon.

P/S: This post is in respond to your thread and how I interpret what you mean. If should I interpret it incorrectly from what you tried to actually mean, I apologize in advance.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 05-18-2005, 11:41 PM   #31
DustinAcuff
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Re: Staying soft.

GO XU! I agree completely!

These techniques have been around relatively unchanged for 1300 years. These techniques were developed by samurai for samurai for use against samurai (who all had extensive jujitsu training) on the battlefield. When the samurai A was using these techniques, it meant he was unarmed, and facing a sword weilding opponent. Later they transitioned into the palaces of the Aizu clan as well as the battlefield. A trained unarmed woman, who was physically no match for a samurai, could defend the palace in a time of need. These training methods and techniques have evolved for over 1000 years, are still alive and kicking, and truely hold the claim of the only onces based entirely on human anatomy. Ju-jitsu breaks stuff because it breaks that way. These techniques, in pure form, break stuff because of the relationship of tendons, ligaments, and bones.

During the last era of the samurai there were many schools who fought for survival. We are still here, and have never been defeated. These techniques have had 1300 years of life and death testing where the practitioners life depended on these techniques working better than any others. Kano sensei bowed to this. O Sensei killed somewhere around 200 men in duels while developing aikido. Takeda sensei killed closer to 800. Kano used a Daito-trained student to push his judo. If you are reciving bad training that you believe to be ineffective, your dojo has either lost sight of the warrior roots of where we came from or you are missing some huge pieces of the puzzle.
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Old 05-18-2005, 11:55 PM   #32
Bronson
 
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Re: Staying soft.

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
O Sensei killed somewhere around 200 men in duels while developing aikido.
I have not heard this before. Can you cite a reference for this?

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-19-2005, 12:08 AM   #33
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Staying soft.

Xu Wenfung,
I don't' know why your apologizing, and I don't know why you're calling me a lost puppy. I was under the impression that this is a place where fellow Aikidoka can discuss issues concerning Aikido. Maybe indeed I should go somewhere else if the notion of some new ideas cause so much anger from you. MMA schools have completely different atmosphere then Aikido Schools. If you look back at some of my posts you might see that this is what I'm alluding to in my desire to make Aikido stronger and more applicable. Most people involved in MMA don't desire self development as much as they just want a victory. I like the Ideals set forth in the Aikido community, but I see lots of people trying to hide from their ideals and would rather belong to a reenactment group. I believe the Aikido community needs these sorts of discussions, just look at some of the more popular threads on here "dose Aikido work" "Defending against Aikido" "Challenges in Aikido" etc etc. Apparently this community you describe isn't too tired, and wore out from work to be concerned with things like martial effectiveness. Most of my students who are "hard core"(meaning the train in all of my class's and train with great enthusiasm) are regular 9-5 dudes, who work all day, then come to my class, and would be totally pissed at me if I didn't fully work them out, and give them 100% of my knowledge of practical effective technique. I think if anyone is barking up the wrong tree it's you my friend. Lot's of people are interested in training in a manor that I would prescribe, and are looking for this exactly. I think the mere fact that you had such a strong reaction to this post is a suggestion that you yourself are not happy with your training. Budo, is about giving 100% and not making excuses.

-Chris Hein
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Old 05-19-2005, 12:12 AM   #34
DustinAcuff
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Re: Staying soft.

I cannot site anything other than word of mouth for the actual kills, but it is not a jump in logic. The numbers are purely what I remember from what I have read/heard, I could be wrong about the number. O Sensei is reported to have been in numerous duels. These are refrenced in most of the books out there. At that particular time duels were still to the death as most samurai traditions were alive and well in the martial arts. He won every duel. Had he lost, we would not have had an O Sensei, just a talented youth who bit off more than he could chew.

From personal accounts of his students, he had a world class temper until he had white hair. We tend to think of O Sensei in terms of his last decade of life, not the vibrant youth who fought in the WWs, who did all the work that led to the O Sensei we all revere.
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Old 05-19-2005, 12:22 AM   #35
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Staying soft.

I might be wrong, but I believe Miyamoto Musashi only had 69 confurmed kills in dules, and Musashi was considerd quite a bringer of death, I dont' have this same feeling about O-sensei.

-Chris Hein
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Old 05-19-2005, 12:35 AM   #36
DustinAcuff
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Re: Staying soft.

Musashi was not in the same period or situation. From what I have gathered from my reading on the internet (and I CANNOT be wrong, everything on the internet IS true - lol) martial arts were kind of competing for survival with challenges between schools being very frequent, especially when a new teacher or a new art came to town. I've heard (from the all knowing internet) that there could have been a few hundred schools of jujitsu alive around this time. The number is quite feasable, especially concidering O Sensei was one of Takeda's better students.

But again, I am throwing out what I understand to be the case, anyone who disagrees or has evidence otherwise is welcome to disagree/correct me.
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Old 05-19-2005, 01:32 AM   #37
maikerus
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Re: Staying soft.

On the other hand...

There *may* be something missing with the MMA ideal. I have no idea since I don't train seriously in any other martial art and aside from a few classes/seminars/friends here and there I have been pretty engrossed in Yoshinkan Aikido for the last 21 years.

The thing that strikes me coming from my background is that there seems to be a lack of trust in the training. Its not a fast path to learn to be subtle and blending as opposed to hard and fast, but ultimately I think most of us on this forum believe it to be a good goal.

The Japanese system that developed the kata form of training did so because training "for real" meant that people would "really" get killed or maimed. I can't imagine wanting to train "for real" in a traditional dojo because the tools that would prevent injuries would not be there. They needed to build a method of teaching the body the movements that work, without having to kill a whole bunch of uke's to do it.

Once the basic kata form was understood and the technical aspects of techniques studied, they moved on to make it more and more physically challenging...still using kata but moving on to build mental toughness or perhaps mental strength through excessive and huge amounts of physical training. (I used the word spirit in another thread and got dissed, so I won't say that again, although those that know do know ) At this stage you get to really know and understand your body and how it works in relation to others. So that if something requiring "Aikido" happens then you can trust your body to do the right thing...

Let me say that again...so that you can trust your body to do the right thing.

And perhaps to elaborate...if you can trust your training to train your body to do the right thing then maybe it doesn't matter if you just do Aikido. I think you see where I am going with this...

If you don't trust your training then go do some MMA stuff...but don't say that it's because Aikido doesn't prepare you for "real fighting".

That being said, there are places where they train "for real" and where they can be killed if they make a mistake. That's what they choose to do and the elite military training that they do in shotgun alley and other realistic situations have an "acceptable" level of risk. However, if even one person in my dojo was maimed or killed, I think that that would kind of be a catastrophe.

One other point...I find it annoying when people say "Train for Real" and then don't get hurt. How can it be real if you aren't defending your life, your family, your beliefs. Even Pride and these other MMA events have rules...my understanding is that there are none in a real confrontation.

FWIW...

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 05-19-2005, 01:46 AM   #38
DustinAcuff
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Re: Staying soft.

Just a philosphical question: who understands the value of life more than the one who has taken it?
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Old 05-19-2005, 03:12 AM   #39
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Re: Staying soft.

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
I cannot site anything other than word of mouth for the actual kills, but it is not a jump in logic. The numbers are purely what I remember from what I have read/heard, I could be wrong about the number. O Sensei is reported to have been in numerous duels. These are refrenced in most of the books out there. At that particular time duels were still to the death as most samurai traditions were alive and well in the martial arts. He won every duel. Had he lost, we would not have had an O Sensei, just a talented youth who bit off more than he could chew.

From personal accounts of his students, he had a world class temper until he had white hair. We tend to think of O Sensei in terms of his last decade of life, not the vibrant youth who fought in the WWs, who did all the work that led to the O Sensei we all revere.
Dustin;

I think you're letting your imagination run away with you. I suggest some of the articles at AikidoJournal for history. Ueshiba M. fought no to the death duels and did not fight in either of the WW's.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-19-2005, 03:48 AM   #40
mj
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Re: Staying soft.

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
Just a philosphical question: who understands the value of life more than the one who has taken it?
The man who doesn't take it, obviously.

katsujinken

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Old 05-19-2005, 11:03 AM   #41
DustinAcuff
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Re: Staying soft.

as always, i could be quite wrong, i'll checkout more info on the journals and other places and see what i can come up with. thanks!
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Old 05-19-2005, 05:18 PM   #42
DustinAcuff
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Re: Staying soft.

btw, the place I got O Sensei being in the WWs was something I read in the history of aikido and nature..something like that, where it mentioned he was a fairly decorated officer and later mentioned the mysterious little flying balls of intent that let him dodge bullets in combat.
The O sensei head count was from someone i know, the logic made sense at the time.
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Old 05-19-2005, 06:48 PM   #43
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Re: Staying soft.

OK Dustin - please read this one first. It's by his son and a very good starting point.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-20-2005, 02:33 AM   #44
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Staying soft.

This thread quickly went from: The possabilitys and Ideas of training to stay practically non resistive in a confrintation. To, Did O-sensei kill 6000 death ninjas on a beach as a bomb was being droped. Staying on track is cleary not one of our strong points!!! hahahahahah

-Chris Hein
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Old 05-21-2005, 01:52 AM   #45
Chris Birke
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Re: Staying soft.

Here we go!

http://www10.ocn.ne.jp/~siba/index11.htm
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Old 05-21-2005, 04:22 AM   #46
mj
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Re: Staying soft.

That site has a low bandwidth limit, if you link to it directly it will run out very quickly.

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Old 05-21-2005, 12:06 PM   #47
Chris Birke
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Re: Staying soft.

Well can someone mirror? I had no idea about the bandwidth limit.
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