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Old 06-25-2001, 09:40 PM   #26
guest1234
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Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
On the other side of things, how many of you do any kind of cool-down exercises (outside, perhaps, of suwari kokyuho) or after-class stretching? I always try to stretch for at least five minutes after class usually during and after I fold my hakama...

-- Jun
That's when I find stretching to do me the most good, it seems easier to get a good stretch when the muscles are warm from class (except the hot muggy Baltimore summers, when they are warm---hot---all through class). For me the goal is increased flexibility to improve my ukemi, so hopefully no injuries after the short warm-up at the start of class. My first dojo would occasionally have an entire class where the sensei taught only stretching, usually the pairs kind---really helped, although I think I may have been the only one enjoying it. Perhaps you could combine folding with stretching, sit in seiza as far away from your hakama as possible, then lean over and reach out...
Jim23, sorry to hear about your injury, hope you are better soon.
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Old 06-26-2001, 01:53 AM   #27
akiy
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Li
IMO, after workout stretching is much more important than pre-workout stretching, which doesn't actually do all that much good (unless you have some specific problem area).
I usually take the pre-workout "stretching" as more of a warming up of the body and working out its kinks rather than really stretching any part of it.
Quote:
Originally posted by ca
Perhaps you could combine folding with stretching, sit in seiza as far away from your hakama as possible, then lean over and reach out...
Actually, I usually fold my hakama with it on the floor right in front of my with my legs straight on either side of it. That way it gets a bit of a stretch while I'm folding it and it's easy to work on the legs right afterwards, too.
Quote:
Originally posted by ca
Jim23, sorry to hear about your injury, hope you are better soon.
Likewise here. Injuries suck.

-- Jun

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Old 06-26-2001, 04:26 AM   #28
ian
 
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As Chris Li said, I think you can potentially warm up by doing good aikido excercises (i.e. working gently into ukemi etc) at a slow pace. So it depends what you call warm up, and I expect it depends on how vigorous the technique is.

Although I don't like big warm ups, 5 minutes does seem short to me. I don't set a time, but it is usually about 15 minutes (including ukemi like excercises).

Also, I've been told that you need a minimum of 8 seconds to stretch a muscle effectively (and without bouncing).

Unfortunately the warm down is something that I tend to do qite poorly - I usually use some form of kokyu-ho. For older people doing vigorous excercise an effective warm down is essential as this is the time when you are most likely to get a heart attack!

I suppose the real question is, do you get strains or injuries from not warming up enough? (I've never had that myself)

Ian
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Old 06-26-2001, 04:30 AM   #29
Kami
Dojo: ShinToKai DoJo of AiKiDo
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Unhappy INJURED HAMSTRING

Quote:
Originally posted by Jim23
I went for an hour run before class, cooled down for a bit (on the way to class), muscles tightened up, then RIP! - actually, it was more like a POP!
I should have known better than to accept that stupid stretching routine!
Jim23
KAMI : that's bad, Jim! Hope you get well soon!
Best regards

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
Unknown author

Ubaldo Alcantara
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Old 06-26-2001, 08:26 AM   #30
Stone
Dojo: Aikido Kokikai, Rochester, NY
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Red face My exercise is separate...

I workout everyday on my own and then go through the stretching and ki-development exercises for the first 1/3 of the class or so. If I need more stretching, I just come early and stretch before class.

My point is, I am responsible for my own body so I take the initiative to keep it in shape and stretched. I go to the dojo to learn aikido...
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Old 06-26-2001, 08:44 AM   #31
ian
 
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Well said.

(Ubaldo - sounds like a nasty injury! I'd love to hear of any more such injuries. I presume yours was 'cos you cooled down too much before aikido? - maybe because evryone was warming up slowly?)
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Old 06-26-2001, 10:57 AM   #32
Jim23
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Quote:
Originally posted by ian
(Ubaldo - sounds like a nasty injury! I'd love to hear of any more such injuries. I presume yours was 'cos you cooled down too much before aikido? - maybe because evryone was warming up slowly?)
Ubaldo?

Quote:
Originally posted by ian
I suppose the real question is, do you get strains or injuries from not warming up enough? (I've never had that myself)
Yes you can, I'm living proof right now. And I've never had it myself either - until now. I think I'll live though.

I'll have to hop a bit like that aikidoka (ki) that Ubaldo mentioned a while back.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 06-26-2001, 06:33 PM   #33
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
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Warming up...

Quote:
Chris Satori wrote:
Don't you think that the warmup should be in character with the activity itself? If so, wouldn't pushups be practically the worst Aikido warmup possible? When will you use that movement?
I'm sure it cant hurt to give your triceps a bit of a work out now and again. (I'm not suggesting you should be the next Schwarzenegger or anything ) Thats the muscle that straightens your arm, and keeps it straight. (Would it be too contraversial to say its the muscle that makes your unbendable arm unbendable?)

You use a straight (unbendable?) arm as a conduit for power from your hips all the time while throwing, and you straighten a bent arm pretty much every time you apply atemi.

Or I could be talking out of my hat.

By the by, Shodokan dojos worldwide (so I'm told, but certainly across the UK) do pretty much the same standard warm-up every session. Theres a routine of limbering up and stretching exercises, but what really gets the blood pumping is the kihon (basic) practice. First the solo footwork and tegatana exercises developed by Tomiki sensei while he was imprisoned in Russia after the war, then a series of paired excercises designed to develop awareness of distance, timing, entering and breaking balance. (among other things)

All in all, the warm-up and basic practice takes up about the first 30 minutes of a two-hour session. It seems like a lot of time but most of the exercises relate directly to aikido. Personally, I find the routine, predictable nature of our warm up helps me get into an aikido frame of mind and leave the rest of my life outside the dojo.

Sean
x

-I dont have a clever quote to put here, all contributions greatfully received.

Last edited by deepsoup : 06-26-2001 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 06-26-2001, 07:24 PM   #34
[Censored]
 
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I'm sure it cant hurt to give your triceps a bit of a work out now and again. (I'm not suggesting you should be the next Schwarzenegger or anything) Thats the muscle that straightens your arm, and keeps it straight.

The muscle fibers that straighten the arm are NOT the fibers that keep it straight.

...you straighten a bent arm pretty much every time you apply atemi.

That is true, in a broad sense. So, do you think that pushups are the best possible warmup (sans props) for striking with the arm? Or are they merely "good enough"? 'Cause if class is only one hour long, "good enough" ain't good enough.
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Old 06-26-2001, 09:57 PM   #35
Jim23
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Re: Re: Twist and shout

Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]
Don't you think that the warmup should be in character with the activity itself? If so, wouldn't pushups be practically the worst Aikido warmup possible? When will you use that movement?
Exercise, not just warmup.

Applying it to everyday life? Oh, you could use it for just about anything that involves tricep (pushing) strength. Aikido is applied to everyday life, isn't it? (couldn't resist that one)

By the way, pushups are also great for strengthening the "centre" of your body and your back (get in "pushup position", but instead of being on your hands, put your elbows on the floor [hands on the floor too], back straight ... hold that for two minutes).

I agree that many of these types of exercises should be done on your own time. HOWEVER, If I were teaching (yeah, right) and noticed many sloppy, out of shape students in the class, I would help them out a little each class.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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Old 06-27-2001, 06:27 PM   #36
deepsoup
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Quote:
Originally posted by [Censored]

The muscle fibers that straighten the arm are NOT the fibers that keep it straight.
Oh, ok, I didn't know that, thanks.

Quote:
...you straighten a bent arm pretty much every time you apply atemi.

That is true, in a broad sense. So, do you think that pushups are the best possible warmup (sans props) for striking with the arm?
No, of course I dont think they're the best possible warmup, and I dont have the experience to say what is. I wasn't saying they're the best, or even that they're particularly good, merely that they're not completely useless.

I can certainly see why people who have a limited amount of time to spend with their sensei dont want to spend that time on an excercise they can just as well do alone.

Sean
x
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Old 06-27-2001, 07:44 PM   #37
darin
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We do 30 to 50 push ups and crunches at the end of class. We do push ups on the back of our hands so as to strengthen the wrists. Fingers can point towards each other or away. It takes a while to get used to it.

As for warm ups, we are encouraged to properly warm up the joints. Also doing taisabaki and ukemi also helps warm up the body. I try to avoid any static stretching in the warm up, jusk keep it all dynamic.

Strength training is important but brute strength shouldn't be a substitute for technique. Then again I asume there are situations where your only option is to use strength as technique has failed.
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Old 06-27-2001, 08:54 PM   #38
guest1234
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I try to stay aerobically fit and muscularly toned, but don't really feel any need to specifically develop strength---the fact that I am not anywhere near as strong as my larger, more muscular partners helps me improve my technique at an accelerated rate, I think --- difficult to muscle someone 100+ pounds heavier. I do push-ups and light weights to keep my torn rotator cuff away from surgery. But I do not think it is something I want to spend class time on, I can (and do) do them at home.
As for the 'out-of-shape, sloppy students', I have one observation: if most of them wanted to be 'helped' into better shape, they'd probably join a gym, or at least stay after to work with those who exercise after class. We have some fitness-challenged types in my dojo, and when one of the instructors tried to encourage them to improve their ukemi by having more of it in warm up (a change I actually liked), they stopped coming to his classes. Not everyone comes to class for the same thing. Good luck at encouraging yours, but be prepared for some to like themselves out-of-shape.
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Old 06-27-2001, 10:22 PM   #39
Jim23
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It's got to be a gradual thing. Don't even let them know that they are getting in shape. One day they will wake up and ... wham! Is that me?? I'm too sexy for my gi.

Jim23

Remember, all generalizations are false
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