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Old 09-01-2004, 02:32 PM   #1
Lorien Lowe
Dojo: Northcoast Aikido
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randori with superuke

Hi-
Do any of the aikido-super-heros out there have advice for doing a randori with the type of ukes who bounce back up before you're even finished throwing the next person? I know I'm supposed to get the ukes lined up and all, but that was a lot easier before Sensei started saying, '*really* go after her like it's a black belt test.'

It's especially difficult if the randori comes at the end of a long, fun training session and my arms and legs feel like noodles (and yes, I *do* know that I'm not supposed to be using arm strength anyway).

Thanks-
Lorien
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Old 09-01-2004, 02:47 PM   #2
shihonage
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Re: randori with superuke

Put the next person between them and you and throw them into the superuke ?
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Old 09-01-2004, 03:12 PM   #3
Nick Simpson
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Re: randori with superuke

Yeah, throw the uke's into each other, use one as a human shield when the other is trying to attack and dont bother with long complicated techniques, I try not to bother pinning as it takes too much time, just project them as far away as possible. Also I find that if you give THEM a hard time and really hammer them into the ground then they will relax a bit and pace themselves as they realise they have to look after themselves. You intimidate them, not the other way round, have fun!

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 09-01-2004, 03:48 PM   #4
kironin
 
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Re: randori with superuke

screening or shielding is good,

but you might look to see if spending too much time per throw.
many people don't connect early enough with the next uke because they are still thinking about the last throw or tried too long to make a throw happen. Look hard at this especially if you find yourself often grabbing ukes rather than leading them into a throw. Also trying to throw every uke every time is a trap people often fall in to also. Allow yourself to choose your throws - place and time - and otherwise move quickly to evade by irimi, atemi, leading past into the way of another uke, etc. Throwing everyone quickly all the time is perfection. Feel real good about getting the flow going for 3-4 nice throws in a row. It's not hard to throw 2-3 ukes everytime. For four ukes or more don't get too greedy, move and evade.

say super-uke bounces up, but instead of throwing the next uke down you move quickly past adding to their energy so they go toppling forward into the path of super-uke.

Last edited by kironin : 09-01-2004 at 03:51 PM.

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Old 09-01-2004, 04:30 PM   #5
Martin Källström
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Re: randori with superuke

Lorien, to me it sounds like your teacher thinks you are making good progress and wants to help you take your skills one step further. Just hang in there and I think you will sort it out with time.
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Old 09-01-2004, 07:58 PM   #6
stuartjvnorton
 
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Re: randori with superuke

Your positioning can make a big difference here, to even out the time between ukes coming in.

Sometimes it's also better doing something a technique that requires a koho ukemi (like irimi tsuki, irimi nage or ushiro nage) than something like kokyu nage or kote gaeshi, which call for zenpo kaiten ukemi.
Most people tend to spring up from a forward roll/flip more quickly than they do from being dumped backwards.
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Old 09-01-2004, 09:40 PM   #7
Lan Powers
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Re: randori with superuke

Besides, it is waaaaay more fun to be the "Super uke". It is also better for you (as nage) to "handle" this much more pressure.
One of my partners in our dojo is an ikyu in the count-down for shodan, he is getting as quick and pressured by uke as possible.
What fun......ukemi is so much more interesting when you are pushing their boundaries.
But then, that is just my opinion.
Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 09-01-2004, 10:37 PM   #8
xuzen
 
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Re: randori with superuke

Quote:
Lan Powers wrote:
Besides, it is waaaaay more fun to be the "Super uke". It is also better for you (as nage) to "handle" this much more pressure.
Totally agreed. As a shite/nage zanshin/awareness is very important. No time for sloppiness and tardiness, he he he.


Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 09-02-2004, 12:27 AM   #9
Iwan F. Kurniawan
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Re: randori with superuke

Quote:
Martin Källström wrote:
Lorien, to me it sounds like your teacher thinks you are making good progress and wants to help you take your skills one step further. Just hang in there and I think you will sort it out with time.

Yes, I agree with you Martin!
Once I had the same situation and my sensei said that it was lucky me had an uke like that ... because the next fact, abviously with a lot of observasion and training - the nage could be very possible to be a super nage!
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Old 09-02-2004, 02:01 AM   #10
ian
 
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Re: randori with superuke

Do things SLOWLY. As Musashi said, your spirit can be transferred to your enemy i.e. if you rush around wildly they will rush around in the same manner.

With a multiple attack people always have the opportunity to get somewhere before you can. Therefore, stroll towards your ukes, do not run around the mat. The only time you may have to move faster is during the technique (if they attack fast).

As an experienced uke in randori, I find the easiest way to catch someone is to see a space which nage will run into, hang around that space at a safe distance, and then attack quickly. However if nage is moving calmly, they don't rush into that space, and therefore have time to deal with your attack.

So here is the strategy:

1. move calmly towards 1st opponent
2. As they initiate attack (or as you enter their space and force an attack) do the technique and move during the technique.
3. Calmly be aware of the others and choose the next opponent.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 09-02-2004, 03:24 AM   #11
Zoli Elo
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Re: randori with superuke

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote:
Hi-
Do any of the aikido-super-heros out there have advice for doing a randori with the type of ukes who bounce back up before you're even finished throwing the next person? I know I'm supposed to get the ukes lined up and all, but that was a lot easier before Sensei started saying, '*really* go after her like it's a black belt test.'

It's especially difficult if the randori comes at the end of a long, fun training session and my arms and legs feel like noodles (and yes, I *do* know that I'm not supposed to be using arm strength anyway).

Thanks-
Lorien
Here are some basic tips:
  • Uses of negative space (moving where they are not, by entering or blending).

    Try to maintain visual contact with all the attackers, or at least most of them. Use peripheral vision and total body spiraling to cover your back.

    Lining them up so that they blocked each other from attacking. Continuously move and control the distances to achieve this.

    Projecting attackers into each other as to momentarily disable their attacks. The weakest attacker continuously thrown into the strongest, is the most tactically sound.

    If your attackers have a "game plain" do your best to put them off their game.

    Breathe, always breathe.

More advanced tips: concentration of the whole of your body's power at a given instant to a given point; relaxation so that you may move fluidly and remain centered (quickness and "dead weight"); knowledge of counter techniques to common aikido techniques; controlling your attackers' focus; et cetra.

Hope that helps,
Zoli Elo
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Old 09-02-2004, 03:33 AM   #12
Zoli Elo
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Re: randori with superuke

P.S. The above is for dojo situations primarily, where one wants to on good terms with one's attackers.

Zoli Elo
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Old 09-03-2004, 11:55 AM   #13
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: randori with superuke

I recieved some advice from a godan once regarding ukes that you described. Although I know he was serious when he said it, I also know it was not in a malicious manner and I know he would never condone hurting someone. What he told me is you "Hurt them a little bit. Then they don't want to attack so quickly."

Lyle Laizure
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Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 09-18-2004, 09:44 PM   #14
Lorien Lowe
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Re: randori with superuke

Thank you for all of your replies; the support really helps.
Having thought a little more on the subject, I wonder if it's valid to hold my ground more
so that my ukes have to come to me (and therefore give me more energy with which to throw
them far away), rather than moving forward to meet them? I haven't asked my sensei this
specific question yet only because I just thought of it.

-Lorien
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Old 09-18-2004, 10:59 PM   #15
villrg0a
 
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Re: randori with superuke

Hi Lorien

When projecting, do not scatter the ukes all over the mat, instead project them in one spot, one after another, on top of each other.....

Enjoy!
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Old 09-19-2004, 12:58 AM   #16
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: randori with superuke

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote:
I wonder if it's valid to hold my ground more
so that my ukes have to come to me (and therefore give me more energy with which to throw
them far away), rather than moving forward to meet them? -Lorien
In my experience, this can get you in trouble even quicker because it's then easy to be too late. By moving towards your ukes you can choose the moment that you meet. Also, if you move towards your ukes, you can choose to slip under/past one uke and deal with the next one instead, saves a lot of time.

kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 09-19-2004, 01:11 PM   #17
ruthmc
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Re: randori with superuke

My sensei says that to stop ukes bouncing up too quickly, you must make sure you throw them down into the mat. If you try to throw them away or high, you give them a little upwards flick that allows them to get up much more quickly. At it's most extreme, uke can flip right back onto their feet from your throw, and then you're in trouble!

Ruth
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Old 09-19-2004, 06:19 PM   #18
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: randori with superuke

This is a portion of a written manual on randori...

Randori is the term we use in Aikido for defense against multiple attackers. While randori contains elements that would be applicable in real self-defense, it is much more than that in Aikido practice.

Aikido is often referred to as "moving Zen" and nowhere is that description more apt than in randori practice. Randori practice requires the practitioner to become one with the stream of time moving continuously in body and mind, never allowing his mind to stop his focus on any detail nor allowing his body to over-commit to any technical element. Instead, Nage must be completely in the present, while being conscious of how every past action led to the present instant and how the present movement shapes future possibilities.

In one sense randori is simply about executing a string of individual techniques. In fact, the old Aikido adage has been that "when facing multiple attackers act as if there is only a single attacker (at a time) and when facing a single attacker act as if there were multiple attackers." But this is a bit simplistic. A technique or movement that might be completely effective and appropriate against a single attacker might be the wrong move if it meant having your back to a second attacker in a randori.

So Nage's Mind must simultaneously maintain focus in the instant on clean and powerful physical technique and yet see the interaction with the Ukes as a whole that flows in time and space. Every action produces an effect that shapes future possibilities. So the Nage must not only focus on the present instant which is the only time in which physical action can take place, but he must also allow his mind to see the flow of past events which set up this instant in time and how the action he takes in this very moment serves to shape the possibilities of the next instant and all those that follow.

Nage not only has to focus in the present on the particular technique he is executing but he should know in that instant what his next move will be, the following move probably will be and the third move in the future could be. Of course the further out in the future he looks, the less certain the exact circumstances will be (because he can't control the various responses of the Ukes). But the closer to the current instant we are the more certainty exists in how this instant can precisely set up the next.

So how does the Aikidoka practice these skills? How does he develop that sense of what to do and when to do it that needs to be so automatic that it seems to happen on a non-conscious level? Repetition or practice is clearly important but mere repetition without the influence of a clear understanding of the principles that govern randori will not result in the highest level of performance. So the primary goal of randori practice is to isolate and clarify the various principles that govern the multiple-attacker interaction.


Randori is Controlling Time
The first requirement of a successful randori is effective technique. The best understanding of movement theory and strategy will be useless if the physical techniques being strung together are weak. Also, not all techniques are equally suited for use in Randori. If you think of technique in a temporal sense every one has a certain rhythm or "beat". The most useful techniques for use in Randori are the ones that can be done in one beat. Occasionally circumstances will allow for the execution of a technique which is two or three beats but generally there isn't enough time available for that.

At the heart of things randori is about controlling time. What makes randori difficult is that with several attackers, one has very little time in between one attack and another. Assuming that your technique is sufficient to handle one attacker at a time, then randori is really all about how to create time. Any action in a randori that doesn't create time for the Nage is essentially a wasted action.

For instance, 75% of the techniques one performs in a randori should result in an attacker taking a fall. An attacker with very good intention will be on you again in about two seconds if you simply evade his incoming attack. If, however, you throw him and move in the opposite direction, you will have 4 seconds before he gets back to the attack.

Normally, every attacker you touch should interfere with the movement of another attacker. In other words, treat each attacker as a weapon to be used against the other attackers. If you have slowed down the movement of an attacker by throwing one of the other attackers at him, you have thereby "created time" for yourself. If you choose not to throw an attacker at another attacker an alternative is to throw him as far as possible from yourself and the other attackers as possible. Time and distance are interchangeable: more distance equals more time.

Movement Principles
Randori strategy varies depending on the type of randori you are doing. It is best to begin with randori in which the attackers are attempting to grab the Nage but aren't executing striking attacks. This forces the Nage to balance his fluid movement with strong throwing technique, allows the Ukes to get a handle on randori ukemi (which is potentially dangerous), and keeps the interaction simpler and therefore more comprehensible so that the movement principles are more evident.
Once strikes are introduced, the randori becomes technically more complex. There are many more possibilities and the Nage has less time to work with because the strikes occur in an instant, as opposed to grabs which have temporal duration. The Nage at this point begins to incorporate striking techniques of his own in order to shorten the duration of a given technique. For example, executing an entry and striking the Uke's head, forcing him to take a fall in order to avoid being hit, takes less time than doing a kotegaeshi.

Randori Ukemi
It is very important that the Ukes respect the Nage's movement. If Nage strikes the space directly in front of the Uke's face, it is incumbent on the Uke to recognize that this is a strike that the Nage is choosing not to do and is not a throw. He should respect the fact that the Nage was kind enough not to hit him by taking the fall. When the Uke fails to acknowledge these techniques it forces the Nage to either actualize his atemi and smash the Uke or to back off in which case the Ukes will prevail because the Nage can not effectively "create time" as he needs to.

If you get to the point at which the randori practice is against armed attackers, the randori becomes almost entirely striking on the part of the Nage. He can't use his hands against the weapons the way he did against the arms of an attacker because they will be "cut". So technique is largely a mix of direct entry strikes with some evasion and use of the Ukes as shields used against the other attackers.

This is just a portion of the whole but I hope it is useful.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
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