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  #51  
Old 01-16-2012, 08:12 PM
Niall Matthews AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
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Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku



connexion by rey
The power used in Aikido is referred to as kokyū ryoku.

Kanshu Sunadomari Sensei

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Last edited by akiy : 01-16-2012 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:33 AM   #50
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Matthew.

Data is a reality. Data put together is knowledge. A bunch of related facts. None of this is truth however.

There's a body of knowledge for every subject you care to look into, you could gather, gather, gather, like a great computer and be called 'intelligent'

That just about covers it. Notice I haven't mentioned understanding, or knowing. They are spiritual matters related to truth.

Different level.

Regards.G.
Hi Graham,
Semantics I suppose, but refreshing myself on the definition of truth I came up with "conformity with fact."
I agree with the idea that a person can collect information/data and not understand it; simply repeating facts (the factual basis being understood by others, usually) doesn't mean someone understands those facts and how they fit within the landscape of truth.
My comment was more directed at the idea that data isn't needed. I would agree that at some point one has to move beyond the established data in order to break new ground; to move beyond the knowledge of others to internalize the information and make it your own. However, this still must conform to objective truth/reality...as much as possible.
The idea of cup being full is an example of how knowledge obfuscates, so I agree we all should periodically empty our proverbial cup...heck, the shape of the tea is determined by the cup, so why not take it a step further and find a new cup altogether from time to time. Still, at some point, once the new cup and tea have been established, we must drink or we're wasting all that delicious sencha! Or omiki, as the spiritual case may be. Point being, sure, as much as possible get rid of presumption; open ourselves up to new possibilities; but respect the objective efforts of the master tea-maker.
So, don't memorize dates and other data, much is superfluous to application of axioms, but they still apply to the verification process since the data still reflects reality. Much can be inferred...the truth triangulated from such "meaningless" data. And if whatever we hold to be true doesn't match with objective (or as objective as possible) data, then it casts a doubt that is very reasonable.
Of course none of this applies to our own personal truths...those things which we apply to our own path, which is entirely our own internal compass. Plato would suggest we leave the cave to find a greater truth, but I would say what works for an individual is for the individual to determine. The shadows are real too and: "enlightenment and delusion: who is to say..."

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:58 AM   #51
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

I think it's interesting that in another thread, assuming I read it correctly, "aiki" was suggested to be a made up word used to help classify things into different categories; that the terminology might not be as important as so many people seem to think. Breath power is clearly a central theme in the Ueshiba Aikido system, regardless of whatever other forms of power it also includes. I'm guessing that whatever we're talking about, one could approach it from an external and/or internal point of view. Perhaps, de facto, most people approach it more from the external due to the subtle and difficult nature of the internal approach. However, perhaps it doesn't matter as long as we're doing our utmost: checking our work; sampling other points of view; always doing our best and being humble enough to know there's always more to learn and other people who know things we do not...or even if just a bit differently. The more data points we can hold together in our minds, the more the image takes shape...that's my "impressionism," at any rate.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 01-22-2012 at 11:05 AM.

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Old 01-22-2012, 11:05 AM   #52
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
... Still, at some point, once the new cup and tea have been established, we must drink or we're wasting all that delicious sencha! Or omiki, as the spiritual case may be.
Or kool-aid. It tastes good and takes people to a "different level" too.

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Old 01-22-2012, 11:15 AM   #53
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Or kool-aid. It tastes good and takes people to a "different level" too.

Beware the drink handed to you by a man in too-cool sunglasses! The sugar does make it frighteningly easy to swallow.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-22-2012, 12:10 PM   #54
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

It's sad that all this non-point squabbling went on here. Nice bit Niall! Thanks for sharing.

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Old 01-22-2012, 12:21 PM   #55
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Niall,
Sorry for any "non-point" discussion I may have added to. I enjoy your point of view and appreciate the expertise you bring to Aikiweb! I hope my comments weren't too far off-topic.
Sincerely,
Matt

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Old 01-22-2012, 01:16 PM   #56
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Niall,
Sorry for any "non-point" discussion I may have added to. I enjoy your point of view and appreciate the expertise you bring to Aikiweb! I hope my comments weren't too far off-topic.
Sincerely,
Matt
Hi Matthew.
Nice cup of tea analogy, I like it. The tea is understanding and a little bit of sugar could be little bits of historical or other data. Too much and you've just got a load of syrup.

I wait for the day when more people realize true budo is love and then can relate Kokyu correctly.

The one thing that differentiates Aikido from the 'traditional' is that it is love based whilst the rest are fear based.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:15 PM   #57
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Matthew.
Nice cup of tea analogy, I like it. The tea is understanding and a little bit of sugar could be little bits of historical or other data. Too much and you've just got a load of syrup.

I wait for the day when more people realize true budo is love and then can relate Kokyu correctly.

The one thing that differentiates Aikido from the 'traditional' is that it is love based whilst the rest are fear based.

Regards.G.
Thanks, Graham! I'm not sure about the rest all being fear based, but I agree the ideal budo is based in love. The "sugar" in the drink is whatever feels good or is attractive...and, good or bad, those things can be the hardest to look past. All we can do is our best to understand through mindful study.
Gambarimashyo!
Take care,
Matt

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Old 01-28-2012, 11:29 AM   #58
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

I was rereading Stanley Pranin's Aikido Pioneers: Pre-war Era, portions of which he's now published on-line, and I found a couple of fascinating passages:

Shioda Gozo
Quote:
When I was in my younger days, I really had my doubts about aikido. When I saw what O-Sensei was doing, I doubted whether he was truly strong. Since I was his student I was always being thrown. I didn’t think he was strong, and thought there must be more to aikido than this. I decided to learn some jujutsu or bojutsu [staff art], and so I went to the dojo of Takaji Shimizu.5 There I was taught how to hold the bo. Then Shimizu Sensei came over to me and said, “It’s wrong to hold the bo so lightly. Attack me all out!” So I asked, “Is it really okay to attack?” and executed a quick movement which sent Shimizu Sensei flying. I thought then that aikido was truly wonderful, and after that, I applied myself to training. Kokyu power is tremendous. It’s different from training in jujutsu. If you execute a sharp movement, you can send your partner fiying. Later, when I met Shimizu Sensei at the Metropolitan Police Department, he said, “Shioda, I’m glad to see you.” That’s what happened.
Okumura Shigenobu
Quote:
Mr. Inoue was extremely skilled. He was probably even more skilled at aiki than Mr. Tomiki, in fact, because Mr. Tomiki actually came more from a judo background.
I find these passages striking for several reasons. First of all, Shioda, clearly a pre-war student, uses the term "kokyu." And Okumura, who started during the war, mostly with Tomiki Kenji, was one of nidai Doshu's closest advisors, and therefore, one of the architects of post-O-sensei aikido, uses the term "aiki."

The second reason I find this fascinating is that Shioda is describing sending the headmaster of Shindo Muso-ryu jo flying, using kokyu, and clearly differentiates the power he was acquiring from jujutsu (angles, locks and deflections).

Third, the statement about Inoue, whose education was entirely Daito-ryu through his uncle, Morihei. Any innovations he made afterwards were long after Okumura would have seen him. But, Okumura does not say that he was doing something "different" from Tomiki, other than that Tomiki's judo influence may have impeded, in some respects, him ascending to the same heights. And despite where and when and what Inoue sensei learned (this "aiki,"), Okumura is not making a differentiation of that from aikido itself.

I think the sum total of all of this (beyond my post, to be sure) is that kokyu-ryoku was O-sensei's personal interpretation and development of this "thing" called aiki.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 01-31-2012, 06:30 AM   #59
DH
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
I think the sum total of all of this (beyond my post, to be sure) is that kokyu-ryoku was O-sensei's personal interpretation and development of this "thing" called aiki.
Ellis Amdur
You have said this before.
Kokyu is in Daito ryu
Kokyu is discussed in interviews with Daito ryu teachers
As you noted, here was Shioda -a prewar student- discussing Kokyu

1. There is no evidence that Ueshiba's kokyu was different than those who taught him and his peers under Takeda.
2. On what basis and teaching can it be demonstrated to be different?
3. You state here that Kokyu was O-sensei's personal interpretation and development of this "thing" called aiki.
Yet he personally stated that the source of aiki was:
Six directions expressed in a circle of opposing forces
Was heaven/ earth/ man and the mountain echo
That the mystery of aiki is revealed with spiral energy rising from the right / descending on the left creating a friction in the body from which is born, in yo- (which in other passages he calls, aiki).
Now...he does in another singular reference cojoin breath power in conjunction with spiraling.

I can make a case that kokyu is part of all of the above, but I would never make the case that breath power is aiki.

In sum, it would appear that Ueshiba's Kokyu was not his discovery or creation- it was discussed and trained by his peers in Daito ryu-still the most probable place for him learning it. Nor does he himself consider kokyu his interpretation of aiki and he never said it was. What he actually did say appears to contradict that. This is logical since aiki is in fact more complicated than breath power alone.
In a related topic to that; there are reasons that he looked and moved markedly different from Tohei, and the reasons are expressed in both of their writings.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-31-2012 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 01-31-2012, 09:44 AM   #60
DH
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

I want to also add that while I would never make the case that breath power is aiki, it can be part of it. I also would not limit kokyu to breath. Hence why I said I could make the argument that kokyu was part of that list I put up of his quotes. If we consider intent and ki to make aiki in us then breath training is part of that, but also something that can be added to that. Intent, Ki, aiki, breath power in training and or delivery of aiki (or jins). So we can say how does part of breath power make kokyu-but also be different and how can kokyu involve heaven/ earth/ man?
Dan
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:18 AM   #61
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I want to also add that while I would never make the case that breath power is aiki, it can be part of it. I also would not limit kokyu to breath. Hence why I said I could make the argument that kokyu was part of that list I put up of his quotes. If we consider intent and ki to make aiki in us then breath training is part of that, but also something that can be added to that. Intent, Ki, aiki, breath power in training and or delivery of aiki (or jins). So we can say how does part of breath power make kokyu-but also be different and how can kokyu involve heaven/ earth/ man?
Dan
Dan,

First, thanks for all your posts on Aiki/IP. After seven years on the mat I thought I'd reached a dead end with this art. Now I understand there's just a lot I've missed.

Now if I can show my ignorance, when you talk about kokyu in relation to power delivery are you referring to the way the word is sometimes used to mean two people working in harmony or more like kokyu-ho/power development? Thanks.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:01 PM   #62
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
David Ringle wrote: View Post
Dan,
First, thanks for all your posts on Aiki/IP. After seven years on the mat I thought I'd reached a dead end with this art. Now I understand there's just a lot I've missed.
Now if I can show my ignorance, when you talk about kokyu in relation to power delivery are you referring to the way the word is sometimes used to mean two people working in harmony or more like kokyu-ho/power development? Thanks.
Seven years?
I know people with 44 yrs in who feel like they are starting over and are thrilled to pieces!!

They really are two sides of the same coin as you can use breath to project or absorb in yourself or in a connection with others. Without going into too much detail;
Consider what it means if your limbs are attached to your middle.
Consider what it means if you can manipulate your middle
Consider what it means if one of three ways you can significantly manipulate your middle is through breath.
If your training allows the ground to support the bottom of hara, and your arms are supported by top of hara, then consider that a body pressurized up and down (part of heaven/earth/ man means that anyone touching your hand...feels the ground, without you using isolated or localized muscle. There are quite a few tips and components to work in learning to do just that well and then a host of other things to add.

Breath is significant but not nearly enough to gaining a more complete grasp on aiki. Breath training for conditioning is fine, breath power and pressurization in use in freestyle...sometimes. The conditioning is what is important. Without proper conditioning "thinking" you are doing anything meaningful with your breath is a pipe dream. Then again, most people I have met in aiki arts don't even know; where their hara is, what their hara is, much less how to train to use it. What aikido mostly is...is using the hips and shoulders for power...a huge mistake. But worse if you don't even realize it and remain convinced you are using your center-hence modern Aikido.
To quote a song Your body is a wonderland.... with specific ways to train:
One-point is not enough
Connection is not enough
Breath power is not enough.
Dan
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:24 PM   #63
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

One-point is not enough
Connection is not enough
Breath power is not enough.
Dan

So would it be oversimplification to say those three ARE enough? Any one by itself is an weak under representation of what could be? Or are we still tip of the iceberg here?
I am of course expecting a direct no here.
Thx
G

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:11 PM   #64
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Seven years?
I know people with 44 yrs in who feel like they are starting over and are thrilled to pieces!!

They really are two sides of the same coin as you can use breath to project or absorb in yourself or in a connection with others. Without going into too much detail;
Consider what it means if your limbs are attached to your middle.
Consider what it means if you can manipulate your middle
Consider what it means if one of three ways you can significantly manipulate your middle is through breath.
If your training allows the ground to support the bottom of hara, and your arms are supported by top of hara, then consider that a body pressurized up and down (part of heaven/earth/ man means that anyone touching your hand...feels the ground, without you using isolated or localized muscle. There are quite a few tips and components to work in learning to do just that well and then a host of other things to add.

Breath is significant but not nearly enough to gaining a more complete grasp on aiki. Breath training for conditioning is fine, breath power and pressurization in use in freestyle...sometimes. The conditioning is what is important. Without proper conditioning "thinking" you are doing anything meaningful with your breath is a pipe dream. Then again, most people I have met in aiki arts don't even know; where their hara is, what their hara is, much less how to train to use it. What aikido mostly is...is using the hips and shoulders for power...a huge mistake. But worse if you don't even realize it and remain convinced you are using your center-hence modern Aikido.
To quote a song Your body is a wonderland.... with specific ways to train:
One-point is not enough
Connection is not enough
Breath power is not enough.
Dan
Hello Dan

I got the impression that kokyu-ryoku didn't just refer to "breath power". One translation I saw was "abdominal breath power". In any case, do you think "kokyu" (not just breath) could be seen as IP while "connection" and the associated application of kokyu could be called "Aiki"?

Carl
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:59 PM   #65
Garth
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Talking Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

I want to also add that while I would never make the case that breath power is aiki, it can be part of it. I also would not limit kokyu to breath. Hence why I said I could make the argument that kokyu was part of that list I put up of his quotes. If we consider intent and ki to make aiki in us then breath training is part of that, but also something that can be added to that. Intent, Ki, aiki, breath power in training and or delivery of aiki (or jins). So we can say how does part of breath power make kokyu-but also be different and how can kokyu involve heaven/ earth/ man?
Dan

Sorry reread earlier posts , question answered
Intent was one of my next guesses

A day will dawn when you will yourself laugh at your effort. That which is on the day of laughter is also now.
Ramana Maharishi
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:02 PM   #66
DH
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Hello Dan

I got the impression that kokyu-ryoku didn't just refer to "breath power". One translation I saw was "abdominal breath power". In any case, do you think "kokyu" (not just breath) could be seen as IP while "connection" and the associated application of kokyu could be called "Aiki"?

Carl
Carl
1. Abdominal breath power
Is the pressurized breath that I referred to.
2. Connection as kokyu
Connection has to be trained-in you- prior to it having any appreciable effect on anyone outside of you.

3. To answer your other question
Breath training is part of Internal strength. Connection is part of Aiki
The qualities that you are training to connect tissue crosses over in everything. It gets much more sophisticated. In any event, there is a reason that aiki takes place in you first.

I choose to stop there because there is very little information I have seen offered by any teacher in Aikido to address a deeper study, and very little I have seen as evidence they even know. For that reason I can't really address who chooses what to train and why with their own terminology. I keep hearing "stories" from various people about their Japanese teachers who can do amazing things.
Who really cares? All you have to do is review every, single, thing, ever written or taught on film by the big top dogs in Aikido to see that when they were given the chance...there was nothing there to help us what-so-ever in regards to IP/aiki. Now that ..we...have chosen to teach ourselves... all of a sudden they are out teaching internal power and aiki as separate works. That may slide under most peoples radar, not mine. I think we need to do the heavy lifting and teach ourselves.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-06-2012 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:05 PM   #67
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Re: Aiki and Kokyu Ryoku

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Carl
1. Abdominal breath power
Is the pressurized breath that I referred to.
2. Connection as kokyu
Connection has to be trained-in you- prior to it having any appreciable effect on anyone outside of you.

3. To answer your other question
Breath training is part of Internal strength. Connection is part of Aiki
The qualities that you are training to connect tissue crosses over in everything. It gets much more sophisticated. In any event, there is a reason that aiki takes place in you first.

I choose to stop there because there is very little information I have seen offered by any teacher in Aikido to address a deeper study, and very little I have seen as evidence they even know. For that reason I can't really address who chooses what to train and why with their own terminology. I keep hearing "stories" from various people about their Japanese teachers who can do amazing things.
Who really cares? All you have to do is review every, single, thing, ever written or taught on film by the big top dogs in Aikido to see that when they were given the chance...there was nothing there to help us what-so-ever in regards to IP/aiki. Now that ..we...have chosen to teach ourselves... all of a sudden they are out teaching internal power and aiki as separate works. That may slide under most peoples radar, not mine. I think we need to do the heavy lifting and teach ourselves.
Dan
Hello Dan

Thank you very much for your explanation.

Carl
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