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Old 10-14-2004, 07:33 PM   #426
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Michael Cangemi wrote:
This is my first post to this forum, so before I pile on with more opinions, hello to everyone.
Welcome, Michael.

Quote:
Our president wants to be the classic Texas cowboy. He wants to kick ass, take names and handle anybody who dares defy his law.
I used to think that Bush is just a cowboy, too. But, he' s not, really. There's a phrase in Texas that fits him: "all hat, no cattle," meaning that he walks the walk, but it's all show.

Bush uses costumes as a blind, as part of his propaganda. Flight suits, cowboy casual...the only real outfit that shows the real Bush, is basic uniform CEO grey. He is a CEO President who directs, is not interested in listening. I believe that he is truly deluded about the effects of his policies, or that he truly doesn't care. Too bad, we can't all be money'd blue-blood's.

Quote:
I guess I can understand anti American sentiment these days. If Bush is allegedly representative of the ideals America stands for, then it is a sad state of affairs.
Sadly, he is. He represents the value of style over substance, of touting democracy and exporting "full-spectrum dominance" (meaning, US hegemony), of short-sheeting the rights and liberties of American's, over protecting their rights, environment, and security.


Quote:
The only thing that I can do is go pull a lever in a couple of weeks and hope that more people feel the way I do than don't.
Kerry is not the answer, either. But, IMO: he's several rungs up from the hellhole, we're in. Maybe: hell see reason, faster than Bush.

Maybe.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 10-14-2004 at 07:36 PM. Reason: added links
 
Old 10-15-2004, 03:40 AM   #427
James Giles
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I can't remember when someone running for office got elected by being straight with the American people. It's our own damned fault we get these clowns running for office because we won't elect anyone who isn't..
I think it might be more of a case of the American voter not really having a say in the matter. It seems to me that the super-elite have control over who will be nominated and even who will ultimately be elected for President. The average taxpayer's voice is never heard.
 
Old 10-15-2004, 04:11 AM   #428
James Giles
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
And THAT is where everyone version of the "truth" comes in, because there may or may not exist, and just because they haven't found them yet, doesn't mean they were destroyed - because we didn't SEE them destroyed. There will be no "absolute truth" as you like to call it, about WMD's.
Yes, I can see your point, and I think it is possible, or even likely that Saddam had WMDs and just moved them across the border into Iran or Syria or somewhere, and I can understand Bush attacking for the purposes of disarming Saddam of WMDs. But, I do not support the U.S. building democracies around the world. Frankly, I just do not believe that should be the taxpayer's responsibility. We need to reinvest that money back into America.
 
Old 10-15-2004, 07:49 AM   #429
Hogan
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
James Giles wrote:
... But, I do not support the U.S. building democracies around the world. Frankly, I just do not believe that should be the taxpayer's responsibility. We need to reinvest that money back into America.
Oh, oh...

The don't look at this site:

http://www.ned.org/ (created & pd for by us)

No ! Don't do it ! Don't you do it !


Last edited by Hogan : 10-15-2004 at 07:52 AM.
 
Old 10-15-2004, 09:45 AM   #430
deepsoup
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Re: Anti-Americanism

I read an interesting article in the paper today, about attitudes towards Bush and America around the world. (From a survey conducted by 11 newspapers in 10 countries.)
The gist of it seems to be, we mostly quite like Americans, we mostly dont like what the US has been doing lately, and we mostly really dont like Bush.
Details here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselection...viewsofamerica

Sean
x
ps: This and this have nothing to do with it, funny though.

Last edited by deepsoup : 10-15-2004 at 09:51 AM.
 
Old 10-15-2004, 10:13 AM   #431
kironin
 
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
No - what people leave out, conveniently, is that the WMD reason was one of many reasons. He believed, AND WHAT EVERYONE ELSE BELIEVED AT THE TIME, including Kerry, Clinton, Edwards, UN, and the rest of the world, was that he STILL had 'em.
This is simply not true. There were plenty of public statements to the contrary including ones made by GWB and Condoleeza Rice before 9/11 that are on videotape. There were reports and studies also before 9/11 that came to the conclusion that Saddam had pretty much dismantled his program. Now that U.S. teams have come to the same conclusions and agree with the conclusions of the U.N. team in the days building up to the invasion of a country that was no threat to us whatsoever, history will probably be a pretty harsh judge of the whole affair in Iraq.

Meanwhile, W continues to say he made no mistakes while commiting billions of dollars of deficit spending and commiting poor families sons and daughters lives in Iraq to a plan the neocons in his goverment cooked up in the early 90's and his father had said no to for just the reasons we are unfortunately seeing being played out now.

 
Old 10-15-2004, 10:55 AM   #432
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
This is simply not true. There were plenty of public statements to the contrary including ones made by GWB and Condoleeza Rice before 9/11 that are on videotape. There were reports and studies also before 9/11 that came to the conclusion that Saddam had pretty much dismantled his program.
See James, an example of different truths for different people. I saw the complete opposite. There are plenty of public statements that confirm what I said.

Quote:
that was no threat to us whatsoever,
aha... haaaaa.ahahh... ahahHAHAH BUWHAHAH !

Quote:
....commiting billions of dollars of deficit spending
What, deficit spending is new ?

Quote:
... his father had said no to for just the reasons we are unfortunately seeing being played out now.
Not true - Bush I didn't go all the way because of it wasn't the goal. The goal was to kick Saddammy Dictator out of Kuwait - Period. (And yes, I know that they said to go all the way would have been costly, but, like I said, that wasn't the goal. If it was, we would have).
 
Old 10-15-2004, 12:54 PM   #433
James Giles
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
See James, an example of different truths for different people. I saw the complete opposite. There are plenty of public statements that confirm what I said.
I think it would be more accurate to say that different people have different opinions about what the truth is. For there is only one truth about this matter, and many lies and half-truths, "public statements" if you will.

But one thing is for sure, we have invested 200 billion plus dollars into this Iraq thing, and inflation and low wages are rampant throughout the U.S. I cannot help but see this whole Iraq situation as just another underhanded way to transfer the wealth of the middle class into the pockets of the filthy rich and to developing nations.

Bush's high deficit spending will haunt us for years to come. All this does is to weaken the dollar, cause inflation, and bring poverty to thousands here in the U.S.

Kerry will do the same thing if he is elected by spending billions on domestic social programs which will also rob the middle class. I think it is time for the middle class to stand up and start kicking some of these politician's in the ass, for they are supposed to be working for us and not the other way around, right?
 
Old 10-15-2004, 01:17 PM   #434
kironin
 
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
aha... haaaaa.ahahh... ahahHAHAH BUWHAHAH !

you can laugh all you want, that hardly negates the military and intelligence expertise of those who have said it.

 
Old 10-15-2004, 01:45 PM   #435
Hogan
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
you can laugh all you want, that hardly negates the military and intelligence expertise of those who have said it.
you can laugh all you want, that hardly negates the military and intelligence expertise of those who have the exact opposite.
 
Old 10-15-2004, 01:55 PM   #436
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Tongue Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
James Giles wrote:
...But one thing is for sure, we have invested 200 billion plus dollars into this Iraq thing, and inflation and low wages are rampant throughout the U.S.
It's "only" 120 billion, not 200 !!!!

But seriously, I am under the impression, as is about every person in the financial world, that sinflation is not a problem and is low. That's not to say, of course, that various aspects of the economy experience high inflation rates, for example, college tuition - which has outpaced general inflation by leaps and bound just about my entire lifetime.

Inflation rates now are generally low compared to other years, and especially during the Carter years:

Year Inflation Rate
1900 1.00
1901 0.99
1902 0.98
1903 2.91
1904 0.94
1905 -0.93
1906 1.89
1907 4.63
1908 -1.77
1909 -1.80
1910 4.59
1911 0.00
1912 2.63
1913 1.71
1914 0.84
1915 0.83
1916 7.44
1917 17.69
1918 17.65
1919 15.00
1920 15.94
1921 -10.83
1922 -6.54
1923 2.00
1924 0.00
1925 2.94
1926 0.48
1927 -1.42
1928 -1.44
1929 0.00
1930 -2.44
1931 -9.00
1932 -10.44
1933 -4.91
1934 3.23
1935 2.50
1936 1.22
1937 3.61
1938 -1.74
1939 -1.78
1940 1.20
1941 4.76
1942 10.80
1943 6.15
1944 1.45
1945 2.38
1946 8.37
1947 14.59
1948 7.87
1949 -1.04
1950 1.05
1951 7.64
1952 2.26
1953 0.95
1954 0.31
1955 -0.31
1956 1.56
1957 3.38
1958 2.98
1959 0.58
1960 1.72
1961 1.13
1962 1.12
1963 1.10
1964 1.37
1965 1.62
1966 2.92
1967 2.84
1968 4.26
1969 5.29
1970 5.94
1971 4.31
1972 3.31
1973 6.20
1974 11.11
1975 8.98
1976 5.75
1977 6.62
1978 7.59
1979 11.28
1980 13.48
1981 10.36
1982 6.16
1983 3.21
1984 4.37
1985 3.54
1986 1.86
1987 3.66
1988 4.12
1989 4.81
1990 5.39
1991 4.22
1992 3.01
1993 2.98
1994 2.60
1995 2.76
1996 2.96
1997 2.35
1998 1.51
1999 2.21
2000 3.38
2001 2.86

2002 1.59
2003 2.27

AAAAAnd enough of that....
 
Old 10-15-2004, 02:13 PM   #437
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
No - what people leave out, conveniently, is that the WMD reason was one of many reasons. He believed, AND WHAT EVERYONE ELSE BELIEVED AT THE TIME, including Kerry, Clinton, Edwards, UN, and the rest of the world, was that he STILL had 'em.
Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
This is simply not true. There were plenty of public statements to the contrary including ones made by GWB and Condoleeza Rice before 9/11 that are on videotape. There were reports and studies also before 9/11 that came to the conclusion that Saddam had pretty much dismantled his program. Now that U.S. teams have come to the same conclusions and agree with the conclusions of the U.N. team in the days building up to the invasion of a country that was no threat to us whatsoever, history will probably be a pretty harsh judge of the whole affair in Iraq.
Partly right, Craig. There were some surveys at the time that put for the view that Iraq was a threat to world peace in 2003, but as the invasion looked imminent, the mantle of "greatest threat" was passed over to the US.

Some ppl armor themselves by taking the first source they believe, at face-value. Simply saying "I don't believe you," and then stopping to explore the issue any further is putting blinders on, while justifying these blinders by stating that the truth is relative. Of course, ask for sources to justify their assertions, and you get a blank stare. The blinders work far better when memory serves as a substitute to sources.

U.K. Poll: Bush A Threat To World Peace (on 3/3/03, just before the invasion)

Quote:
Consider this: an opinion poll, taken a few days ago, asked people in Britain: who is the greatest threat to world peace: George W. Bush or Saddam Hussein? 45 percent said Saddam Hussein. No surprise there. But, get this, another 45 percent said George W. Bush.
Bush, an equal threat to world peace, as Hussein, from our greatest ally, just before the invasion...?? Hmm.

But, certainly: "everyone else at the time" did NOT believe that Hussein had wmd's. The worldwide protests of the invasion in March, 2003, are ample indication that many did not buy BushCo's numerous lies, on the subject.

Hans Blix gave his report just before the invasion, that stated

Quote:
How much time would it take to resolve the key remaining disarmament tasks? While cooperation can and is to be immediate, disarmament and at any rate the verification of it cannot be instant. Even with a proactive Iraqi attitude, induced by continued outside pressure, it would still take some time to verify sites and items, analyse documents, interview relevant persons, and draw conclusions. It would not take years, nor weeks, but months.
Months. We would have known for sure, within months. courtesy of a program that costs $80M/year, and costs no lives, involves no invasions.

Instead, we had Bush touting that "Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud." Not just once, but 200x.

But, then: of course, Bush flouted int'l law by invading without UN approval. Of course, some ppl will claim that Iraq was subject to "serious consequences" for not fully complying with 1441, but they always seem to exclude the fact that one SC member cannot decide what those "consequences" will be--it has to be decided by the full Council.

War, and invasion, is only usable, in self-defence, and since the US was in no immediate threat, the US violated the UN Charter, and broke int'l law.

Everyone knows this, and everyone who watches for these things can see the results: more justifications for "pre-emptive strikes," to protect themselves, from other countries; more "Patriot Act" style legislation (India's Protection of Terrorism Act--or PoTA--is an example), that on the surface, looks to be a measure to increase security, but in practice is an excuse to remove civil liberties, and to persecute minorities.

Quote:
The 30 terrorist organizations listed in the POTA included 11 Muslim and four Sikh bodies, but none of the outfits of anti-minority terrorism. Like the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), spearhead of the Gujarat carnage of 2002 that claimed nearly 3,000 Muslim lives. And, the POTA was not invoked against members of the non-minority organizations that did figure in the list.
Thankfully, PoTA is now dead, but the far Right (the BJP) party of India has not thrown in the towel, yet.

The devil is in the details, and the supporters of this war, and the Patriot Act, etc, prefer to leave the details to someone else. Memory and style is a far better substitute, to documentation.

Quote:
Ronald Reagan wrote:
"Facts are stupid things"
 
Old 10-15-2004, 06:08 PM   #438
kironin
 
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Partly right, Craig. There were some surveys at the time that put for the view that Iraq was a threat to world peace in 2003, but as the invasion looked imminent, the mantle of "greatest threat" was passed over to the US.
I have no doubt Saddam was a threat in the region. He already attacked two of his neighbors. Iran with the backing of the U.S. in the 1980's and Kuwait when the Bush senior administration lacked the attention, will, or communication skills to contain his delusions. But it's quite clear from the reports preceding 9/11 that a careful educated analysis not driven by the distortions of other agenda after 9/11 would not have concluded that such a rush to war was even remotely necessary for our immediate security interests. Invading Iraq was a huge go-it-alone gamble. An expensive and costly roll of the dice destabilizing the region for years to come. And the administration didn't even attempt to hedge their whopping bet by having a very well-designed out post invasion plan. Yeah, really, they will love us for liberators after a shock and awe romp across their country followed by moves that cause total disintegration of security in the country and then building bases to hunker down while handpicking their leaders. See how fun freedom is ? You too can be just like the homeless wondering the streets in the US except a hundred times worse.

Last edited by kironin : 10-15-2004 at 06:11 PM.

 
Old 10-15-2004, 06:18 PM   #439
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
you can laugh all you want, that hardly negates the military and intelligence expertise of those who have the exact opposite.
name one.

outside the usual gang of lying neo-con politicos

 
Old 10-15-2004, 06:43 PM   #440
James Giles
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
But seriously, I am under the impression, as is about every person in the financial world, that inflation is not a problem and is low.
Inflation rates now are generally low compared to other years, and especially during the Carter years:
But inflation is a problem when wages are going down and at best staying where they have been for the past 10 - 15 years. Salaries are being cut, people are working longer hours and prices are going up. One has to consider all variables to get an accurate picture of how Americans are losing their buying power.
 
Old 10-16-2004, 07:53 AM   #441
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
name one.

outside the usual gang of lying neo-con politicos
What, is this a pissing contest ?

YOU name one of yours, outside of the usual gang of the lying liberal politicos (and remember, I get to decide if they are lyig liberal or not, just as you would have decided if they are lyig neo-cons).
 
Old 10-16-2004, 10:40 PM   #442
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
What, is this a pissing contest ?
obviously it's your pissing contest.

 
Old 10-16-2004, 11:27 PM   #443
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
Yeah, really, they will love us for liberators after a shock and awe romp across their country followed by moves that cause total disintegration of security in the country and then building bases to hunker down while handpicking their leaders. See how fun freedom is ? You too can be just like the homeless wondering the streets in the US except a hundred times worse.
Greg:

Worse, we repeat the same mistake as the British, in 1917, as well as Napoleon. Each imperial power invaded the region, spouting almost exactly the same nonsense about being "liberators." You'd think that someone in the top brass would have studied their history (actually, they did. There are ppl on every level of gov't and intel that were/are opposed to this war).
 
Old 10-16-2004, 11:38 PM   #444
Neil Mick
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
obviously it's your pissing contest.
Yeah, he likes to do the pissing-contest thing, I've noticed.

I'm reading the "Big Bush Lies" book, right now. You realize all of the lies he's committed, but when you read about them all at once, you realize the scope of his mendacity.

"Clear Skies Initiative?" Written by the power companies.

"Healthy Forests?" Open season, on old-growth timber (Of course, John will say that "there are more truths, to this," but a clearcut forest, is still without trees, no matter what he says).

"No Child Left Behind?" A series of narrower hoops for schools to jump through, in a program left unfunded (talk about ironic names! )

Throwing out "junk science," over "sound science?" This was his stated aim in 2000, and he did exactly the opposite, in his (non)dealings in greenhouse gases, stacking the juried panels for scientific peer review boards, and his "secret" energy policy--dug up from the bowels of the various participating energy companies.

Bush isn't really running against Kerry...he's running against his own record.
 
Old 10-17-2004, 01:05 PM   #445
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
obviously it's your pissing contest.

Ow. You told me.
 
Old 10-17-2004, 01:08 PM   #446
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Yeah, he likes to do the pissing-contest thing, I've noticed. ...

"Healthy Forests?" Open season, on old-growth timber (Of course, John will say that "there are more truths, to this," but a clearcut forest, is still without trees, no matter what he says)...
You said you were going to ignore me, but I guess I keep bRINging you baCK IN !

And I like how you have an imaginary response form me and then a reponse form you to my imaginary response.
 
Old 10-19-2004, 03:15 AM   #447
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Re: Anti-Americanism

I notice that once again with an election looming GWB has 'requested' that British troops move into that area of Iraq which is under American responsibility. (The word control seems inappropriate for some reason). The last time that happened was when Royal Marines were needed to enter OBL's cave complex in Afghanistan. (There were elections looming then as well)

Given we are talking about GWB can anybody out there escape the conclusion that this is a political maneuver to minimize American casualties in the run up to the US election. (Which hopefully will actually be an election).

Just curious
 
Old 10-19-2004, 03:44 AM   #448
deepsoup
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
Given we are talking about GWB can anybody out there escape the conclusion that this is a political maneuver to minimize American casualties in the run up to the US election.
I share your misgivings. I definitely get the feeling that the Black Watch are being asked to free up American troops to go off and make a contribution to Bush's election campaign. (He wants to sink the Belgrano. ) Maybe he should try holding another rally in front of a "job done" banner - after all if you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth, no one knows that better than GWB.

Sean
x
 
Old 10-19-2004, 06:08 AM   #449
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Re: Anti-Americanism

What frightens me is that he appears to be portraying himself as a man who will not deviate from the "War on Terror" - an people believe him!!! This is a guy who invaded Afghanistan because OSB and Al-Quida (please forgive my spelling) were the primary focus - then when they couldn't find him they concentrated all their resources on invading Iraq. And that's before you take into account that he had intelligence that Al-Quida was planning to hijack airlines for a terrorist assault prior to September 11.

And people think that is is the guy to protect them.?

His campaign on this topic appears to be - I took no steps to prevent September 11th. I got bored trying to hunt down those responsible, so i invaded the Iraqi oil wells instead. I have allowed troops to commit torture, left Iraq in total upheaval. But i think you're all morons , please vote for me!
 
Old 10-19-2004, 07:39 AM   #450
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Spoken like a true terrorist sympathizer. That is a very creepy statement.
Careful there, as they said in Northern Ireland, one man's Terrorist is another man's Freedom Fighter.

Funny how America, once again falls victim to it's own foreign policy.

I agree with others on the fact that British troops are being requested for political reasons in the run up to the elections. But, British troops without doubt are the best in the world at dealing with areas such as Baghdad, we've had over thirty years of very real operations in Northern Ireland to hone our skills and we are very good at it. Just look at the News to determine different approaches, Americans are interested in 'force protection' body armour, helmets, MBTs in an urban environment. Wheras the British, soft headdress, no body armour, foot patrols in low risk areas.

They call southern Iraq the so called 'safe zone' is that not because the resident units have made it that way and the north is under predominantly American occupation?


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