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Old 03-04-2004, 04:26 PM   #1151
"wawatusi"
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Quote:
James Giles wrote:
Also, what illegal trade sanctions and subsidies are you referring to?

Thanks, James
This is typical. When the sanctions on iraq where working they are UN sanctions... When they don't they are american sanctions. Never mind that after hussein was toppled france did not want to give up its Oil for palaces program that reaped billions of dollars for france and co.
 
Old 03-04-2004, 04:44 PM   #1152
Yo-Jimbo
Dojo: formerly Windward Aikido, formerly at Keewenaw Schools of Aikido (ASU)
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I thought that the ideal of aikido was to seek to destroy the conflict, not to pile up bodies. What ever happened to the sword that gives life? Sure it is an ideal, but isn't it an ideal that is worth striving ever for? I'm game to see if the conflict can be resolved between two "James" without permanent damage to either. Having read the bodies intension, I bravely irimi.
Quote:
James Giles wrote:
the U.S. was attacked on 9/11
True, but is that the only history or real motivation for the subsequent conflict? Unfortunately, English doesn't have punctuation that indicates a clearly rhetorical question.
Quote:
James Giles wrote:
we are going after Islamic militant terrorists wherever we can find them
False, a token amount are being sought by ineffective and inappropriate means for the political and economic gains of a privileged few.
Quote:
James Giles wrote:
you guys were our Allies
True, but how far up our hind end do their noses have to be to fulfill that obligation? Don't allies as good friends have the obligation to let you know when they think you have strayed off course?
Quote:
James Giles wrote:
we have become the world's police
If only, I doubt we would be very happy if the police in our country acted in the same way on our soil. Policing should be done with police; calling any occupation a "police action" is just political correctness verging on doublethink.
Quote:
James Giles wrote:
the U.N. is too wimpy to do the job themselves
That is open to debate and interpretation. It was strong enough that we couldn't boss it around at our slightest whim, but it can't stop the only superpower from doing what it wants either. I think if this is the case then the U.S. should take the high road and work to strengthen it, not tear it down. This unilateral attitude sounds amazingly similar to the following:
Quote:
Under no circumstances should any (word omitted) or sane person resort to the United Nations. The United Nations is nothing but a tool of crime. We are being massacred everyday, while the United Nations continues to sit idly by.
I don't agree with this person I just quoted. Do you? I empathize and understand that people have and are suffering from the pain that they inflict on each other. Assuredly the U.N. has had numerous shortcomings, undoubtedly members of that body have their own personal agendas, but civilization should not tolerate a "blood for blood" attitude. I'm not even asking for anyone to turn the other cheek; at the same time, standing up for what's right needn't be wrathful.

It is both funny and sad that with more than half the U.S. population and almost the entire world population against the policy of this administration the other half still clings to that policy as if they had discovered that the world were round or something and everyone else is clinging to the idea that it is flat. It is also funny and sad that, at the time when my fellow U.S. citizens were most wiped into a frenzy to support the war, with ~90% of the people polled supporting the invasion of Iraq (our nose still bloodied from the old 9/11 no doubt) only ~10% knew where it was on the globe (A failure of our public schools or just plain apathy and ignorance? I don't know and I don't care the "American" says.). I can't say if the numbers are true or not, but it sounds disappointing enough to be believable.

Good news is that peace will prevail soon; as, McDonalds will be serving by next year in Iraq (or so they say). Who knows, they might even have free and democratic elections with their burgers and fries.

Still how can one trust the ideas of a physicist, one of the conspirators that brought you such silliness as a round earth, stars fusing hydrogen and a multi-billion year old universe.

Hypothesis in the face of measurement is either theory or refuted. It is not quite as snappy as the others. I guess some ideas are just a little too subtle and important for sound bites.

Hope you all enjoyed the flight.

"One does not find wisdom in another's words." -James D. Chye
 
Old 03-04-2004, 05:38 PM   #1153
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
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Daniel Rozenbaum (DanielR) wrote:
Let's raise the level of abstraction here and see if we take Japan and Germany as examples of the following pattern of civilization: a democratic super-power builds a new order in a totalitarian country after beating that country in a war (reasons for the war aside). Generally, is it a desirable pattern?
Generally, there is "insufficient data," as a Star-Trek-style computer might put it. At its broadest parameters--yes, a "superpower" building a new "order" is a desirable pattern. But, you have to weigh in other factors, as well--

1. Is it possible to have a "democratic superpower?" This point is arguable; certainly, it's arguable in the international arena.

2. Define "new order?" I'd say that the US rebuilding Japan's "new order" after WW2 WAs desirable, as it avoided humiliation of the Japanese.

I'd also argue that the US's attempts to establish a "new order" in Iraq are failing largely for not adhering to respecting the complexity of Iraqi culture and civilization.

The Japanese are hierarchical and bound solidly by an unified traditional value-system. Their minorities are few, and disempowered. In terms of reunification and reconstruction, this is a positive asset.

The Iraqi's, OTOH: have 2000 clans and several powerful and widely suppressed minorities who are aching for their independence. Any attempt at reconstruction that ignores these parameters is the first step on the path to folly.

3. Also, what are the intentions of the superpower? Is it setting up a country with the aim to make it a subservient "client-state," with many of its resources siphoned off to its private concerns? The US has done this many times in the past (Nicaragua, and United Fruit, comes to mind).

Good question, tho: daniel...food for thought.
 
Old 03-04-2004, 05:47 PM   #1154
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Quote:
James Giles wrote:
All I know is that the U.S. was attacked on 9/11 and we are going after Islamic militant terrorists wherever we can find them.
With respect...nonsense. We go after whomever Bush feels like going after, and makes up the rationale's later.

If we go after "Islamic militants:" why have we not gone after Pakistan's own Dr. Strangelove: Dr. Khan, who freely admitted to selling nuclear secrets to Libya?

Why have we gone after a democratically-elected President (Aristide), over an established, unelected paramilitary organization (FRAPH)...even going so far as to supply US-weaponry to its members?

Why do we give asylum to one of FRAPH'S founders--Emmanuel Constant: yet deny the same liberty to Haiti's President?

Why did the US go after Hussein: who has no proven complicity with 9-11, or even with terrorist networks?

Simply put: because we (sorry--the US gov't...WE are not the US gov't) care less about "hunting down terror," than the US cares about establishing power-bases and client-states.

Democracy takes a backseat to military supremacy. Just as it does with every expansionist empire with dreams of global domination.
 
Old 03-04-2004, 05:57 PM   #1155
Neil Mick
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James Chye (Yo-Jimbo) wrote:
I thought that the ideal of aikido was to seek to destroy the conflict, not to pile up bodies. What ever happened to the sword that gives life?
FINALLY! Finally: someone points this fact out. You'd be amazed at the ppl who argued, pre-Iraqi war, that we need to "atemi" and "irimi" Hussein, before he attacks us.

Now, of course: no one uses such an absurd argument, as he had no means to attack us.

Thank you for bringing this up. Aikido is a martial art of peace. All you pro-war types are entitled to your opinions, but it puzzles me that you practice an art of peace, yet tout war.
Quote:
True, but is that the only history or real motivation for the subsequent conflict? Unfortunately, English doesn't have punctuation that indicates a clearly rhetorical question.
Exactly. The question of "why do they hate us" was never properly answered. It's one of the few good things that Bush ever said, yet he gave a stupid answer.

Perhaps: "they" hate us, for bombing and invading their countries, hmm? Nah: that COULDN'T be it...
Quote:
Good news is that peace will prevail soon; as, McDonalds will be serving by next year in Iraq (or so they say).
Which, I might add: is probably the reason for invading, in the first place...to protect US interests. Again. And again. And yet again.
Quote:
Still how can one trust the ideas of a physicist, one of the conspirators that brought you such silliness as a round earth, stars fusing hydrogen and a multi-billion year old universe.

Hypothesis in the face of measurement is either theory or refuted. It is not quite as snappy as the others. I guess some ideas are just a little too subtle and important for sound bites.

Hope you all enjoyed the flight.
I sure did. Good post: well articulated.
 
Old 03-04-2004, 06:41 PM   #1156
James Giles
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Quote:
James Chye (Yo-Jimbo) wrote:

False, a token amount are being sought by ineffective and inappropriate means for the political and economic gains of a privileged few.
Sounds like that might be more your opinion than a fact. Can you back it up with sources?
Quote:
James Chye (Yo-Jimbo) wrote:

True, but how far up our hind end do their noses have to be to fulfill that obligation? Don't allies as good friends have the obligation to let you know when they think you have strayed off course?
Yes they have that obligation, but I didn't realize that they felt that way (??).
Quote:
James Chye (Yo-Jimbo) wrote:

If only, I doubt we would be very happy if the police in our country acted in the same way on our soil. Policing should be done with police; calling any occupation a "police action" is just political correctness verging on doublethink.
Obviously their police weren't doing too hot a job, so we had to go over there and help them out a little bit. We may end up having to stick around there for the next 100 years if that is what it takes to eliminate terrorists, but after some thoughts on the matter, I feel it is worth my taxdollars to support the effort.
Quote:
James Chye (Yo-Jimbo) wrote:

This unilateral attitude sounds amazingly similar to the following:
Perhaps you want to call it a unilateral attitude, but the way I see it, we are sending a very clear message to the rest of the world, that we aren't going to put up with attacks against our citizens. If the U.N. and others won't stand up for us, we have to stand up for ourselves.
Quote:
James Chye (Yo-Jimbo) wrote:

but civilization should not tolerate a "blood for blood" attitude. I'm not even asking for anyone to turn the other cheek; at the same time, standing up for what's right needn't be wrathful.
Then what exactly are you asking? - what do you feel is the solution to the problem James?
Quote:
James Chye (Yo-Jimbo) wrote:

It is both funny and sad that with more than half the U.S. population and almost the entire world population against the policy of this administration the other half still clings to that policy as if they had discovered that the world were round or something and everyone else is clinging to the idea that it is flat.
Where are you getting your statistics from? Dan Rather? I think a lot more Americans are behind this effort to defend our borders than you have been led to believe.
Quote:
James Chye (Yo-Jimbo) wrote:

It is also funny and sad that, at the time when my fellow U.S. citizens were most wiped into a frenzy to support the war, with ~90% of the people polled supporting the invasion of Iraq (our nose still bloodied from the old 9/11 no doubt) only ~10% knew where it was on the globe (A failure of our public schools or just plain apathy and ignorance?
Well I suppose our public schools aren't doing a good job of teaching geography, but by God the fighter pilots sure know (knew) where to find Iraq. The bombs didn't get from point A to point B on their own!
Quote:
James Chye (Yo-Jimbo) wrote:

Good news is that peace will prevail soon; as, McDonalds will be serving by next year in Iraq (or so they say). Who knows, they might even have free and democratic elections with their burgers and fries.
I can see your point there. I really feel the U.S should help the people over there get on there feet and then get out as soon as possible. I don't believe in the U.S. occupying a foreign land...just ridding it of elements that come over here and mess with us.
 
Old 03-04-2004, 07:25 PM   #1157
James Giles
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Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
FINALLY!

Thank you for bringing this up. Aikido is a martial art of peace. All you pro-war types are entitled to your opinions, but it puzzles me that you practice an art of peace, yet tout war.
How do you use Aikido peacefully against a group of fanatics who have sworn jihad against the Christian world?
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Exactly. The question of "why do they hate us" was never properly answered. It's one of the few good things that Bush ever said, yet he gave a stupid answer.

Perhaps: "they" hate us, for bombing and invading their countries, hmm? Nah: that COULDN'T be it...
I think they hate us because we support Israel. It boils down to the fact that the radical Islamist are pledging a religious war against Christianity and Judeaism. It is all symbolic to them and their religious system. I suppose if they weren't all wearing bombs strapped to themselves we could all run up to them and use Aikido on them without repercussions. Unfortunately such is not the case. As long as there is jihad, there will never be peace. Their religion is war. How do you find a peaceful solution with someone like that?
 
Old 03-04-2004, 09:04 PM   #1158
DanielR
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Neil wrote:
At its broadest parameters--yes, a "superpower" building a new "order" is a desirable pattern. But, you have to weigh in other factors, as well--
I agree. And, since the amount of factors seems to be approaching infinity, I guess we should leave it to historians 1000 years from now.
Quote:
James Chye wrote:
I thought that the ideal of aikido was to seek to destroy the conflict, not to pile up bodies.What ever happened to the sword that gives life? ...

...civilization should not tolerate a "blood for blood" attitude. I'm not even asking for anyone to turn the other cheek; at the same time, standing up for what's right needn't be wrathful.
James, in my mind both of the above are open to interpretation. When destroying a conflict results in casualties (could happen even if you utilize an "art of peace", couldn't it?), does it immediately become "piling up bodies"? And how can we define a difference between a "wrathful, blood-for-blood" attitude and an appropriate response?

Daniel
 
Old 03-05-2004, 03:07 AM   #1159
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Quote:
James Giles wrote:
Quote:
Thank you for bringing this up. Aikido is a martial art of peace. All you pro-war types are entitled to your opinions, but it puzzles me that you practice an art of peace, yet tout war.
How do you use Aikido peacefully against a group of fanatics who have sworn jihad against the Christian world?
An excellent question.

The first thing you do, is try to understand them. Understanding uke gives you many advantages.

Once you understand uke: you draw him out of his stance, or unbalance him, from his inclination to attack.

How you do this can take many tactics, but penultimately: you draw uke out of his base. As we often study: uke is drawn out by attacking--but there are other ways.

Whatever you do, you do it out of concern for uke, as if they were your kin.

Quote:
Exactly. The question of "why do they hate us" was never properly answered. It's one of the few good things that Bush ever said, yet he gave a stupid answer.

Perhaps: "they" hate us, for bombing and invading their countries, hmm? Nah: that COULDN'T be it...
Quote:
James Giles wrote:
I think they hate us because we support Israel. It boils down to the fact that the radical Islamist are pledging a religious war against Christianity and Judeaism. It is all symbolic to them and their religious system. I suppose if they weren't all wearing bombs strapped to themselves we could all run up to them and use Aikido on them without repercussions. Unfortunately such is not the case. As long as there is jihad, there will never be peace. Their religion is war. How do you find a peaceful solution with someone like that?
You're forgetting something critical: fundamentalists run amok in all countries. Islamic society is much more diverse, than a few fanatics (if you can even call it a unified society...too general a term). And, many Islamic's hate fanatic's. Look at the recent suicide bomb that killed 180 ppl in Iraq, to see what I mean. Besides, only a small portion (I mean, a sliver of a sliver) of the Islamic community is fundamentalist fanatics.

Yet, we invade and topple governments that affect everyone in that country. We destroy their public records, their libraries, their water and electrical systems.

That's simply wrong.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 03-05-2004 at 03:11 AM.
 
Old 03-05-2004, 08:40 AM   #1160
Michael Neal
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Nuke the commies!
 
Old 03-05-2004, 10:04 AM   #1161
Hogan
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Nuke the commies!
Damn straight.... commie bastards.
 
Old 03-05-2004, 10:52 AM   #1162
Neil Mick
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Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
Nuke the commies!
Quote:
John Hogan (Hogan) wrote:
Damn straight.... commie bastards.
Silence the peanut gallery!
 
Old 03-05-2004, 01:14 PM   #1163
Michael Neal
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Nuke Neil Mick
 
Old 03-05-2004, 03:15 PM   #1164
Neil Mick
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Michael Neal wrote:
Nuke Neil Mick
A whole nuc, for little ole' me? Naw, really: you shouldn't have.

*Sigh* It's nice to be loved...
 
Old 03-05-2004, 03:52 PM   #1165
George S. Ledyard
 
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Still Here?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
A whole nuc, for little ole' me? Naw, really: you shouldn't have.

*Sigh* It's nice to be loved...
Neil,

I can't believe you are still here pounding away... for what? I had a freind in college who didn't believe in evolution. No amount of factual information to the contrary could challenge this worldview. Period.

Everything that you and I have warned of since the start of this venture is coming true but that won't change any minds here. If things fall apart they'll just blame it on the peace niks who didn't let us win (same ridiculous argument after we lost in Viet Nam). The whole shebang could fall apart and it won't result in even a moment of self doubt, not a second of introspection. Eric Hoffer called folks like this "True Believers". It's simply not worth your time to fight with them...

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
 
Old 03-07-2004, 11:58 AM   #1166
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
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Re: Still Here?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Neil,

I can't believe you are still here pounding away... for what? I had a freind in college who didn't believe in evolution. No amount of factual information to the contrary could challenge this worldview. Period.

Everything that you and I have warned of since the start of this venture is coming true but that won't change any minds here. If things fall apart they'll just blame it on the peace niks who didn't let us win (same ridiculous argument after we lost in Viet Nam). The whole shebang could fall apart and it won't result in even a moment of self doubt, not a second of introspection. Eric Hoffer called folks like this "True Believers". It's simply not worth your time to fight with them...
I have given my response to this question some thought. Actually, it's two questions, and let me approach them in turn:

1. Why do I still post here?

Really, I could expand this to "why do I write, in fora?" Argument and debate stirs me to research and document my beliefs. I have learned a great deal about int'l affairs, since I started posting.

Also, I receive input from totally unexpected (and welcome) quarters. The email I received from a US soldier on patrol in the Sunni Triangle was gripping and made me feel that this all was not a total waste of time. I also got a glimpse of what his day-to-day experience of coping with his situation must be like, more by what he omitted, than what he stated in his note.

The last time I checked, he hadn't logged into that website for more than 25 days. I wonder if he's still alive (more likely, just too busy to post on fora).

Then there was the Jordanian Aikidoist who talked about the seminar for Iraqi's, set up by an Italian shihan. It gave me inspiration, and ideas for a similar venture.

While few and far between, the few letters I get are encouragement that I'm not simply blowing out hot air, no matter what certain obnoxious Libertarians might think.

Still, I wrestle with the notion that this IS, largely, a waste of time, and I'd be better off doing something else (and I'm sure that if you're reading this, Opher: you're nodding your head right now). OTOH: I do enjoy debating with post-ers who can carry on a reasonable discussion (as with DanielR, et al--it sharpens the mind).

2. Why debate, when you aren't changing anyone's mind?

Why practice Aikido, when we can't use it to force a violent person to be peaceful?

Contrary to the claims of some post-ers, I am not here to convert anyone to my beliefs. I am here to TEST some of those beliefs, and to learn from the beliefs, of others.

Some of my conversations with a conservative policeman on demonstration control in DC were very educational, in understanding "the other side," for example. There is no way that we could "convince" each other of the "rightness" of our perspectives, but I understand his beliefs a lot better than I did, and I hope the understanding was reciprocal.

Admittedly, sometimes the effort is a big waste. I spent a LONG time talking to a fanatical Zionist on aikidojournal and achieved a "meeting of minds" a few times, but mostly it was a wasted effort.

Then there was the crew from bugei.com who felt comfortable parodoxically calling the human shields in Iraq "cowards;" and asking the telling question, "why can't you just trust your leader to do the right thing?"

And I won't even go into the frequent flames I get from the likes of geniuses such as Mssrs. Neal, et al.

But the internet is no place to attempt to change minds, and I don't. I am here to present a perspective, to test it (or comparatively measure) against other perspectives. Along the way, I learn things I had't considered, often quite by accident.
 
Old 03-07-2004, 11:03 PM   #1167
James Giles
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Neil Mick wrote:
An excellent question. The first thing you do, is try to understand them. Understanding uke gives you many advantages.... Whatever you do, you do it out of concern for uke, as if they were your kin.
Hey Neil, I can see your point. I want to understand why these Islamic terrorists want to kill Christians and Jews. Do you have any idea why that is? Is it something that is written in their religious book (koran?)?

I really am not a barbarian. I hate the idea that a lot of innocent people are getting killed over this conflict. If there was a peaceful solution to it, I am all for that. Just one innocent person being killed is too many as far as I am concerned.

No one seems to have any explanations, This issue is very sensitive and it is rarely discussed in the media, and no one else seems to have any explanations. But, does anyone out there on the forum know just exactly what is it that Israel has done that draws so much animosity from the Muslim world? It really seems that a rational solution could be reached so that all parties concerned could co-exist together in peace.

If it boils down to the fact that these terrorist's desire to murder is based on their religious belief system, it would require reprogramming those persons' religious beliefs. I suppose this could be done, but I think there would be a lot of resistance from the person.

I am all for a peaceful solution, but no one seems to want to talk about the root problem and the source of that problem. Maybe if people could start talking about it, it could be worked out.

P.S. I have learned a lot about myself from these forums. Sometimes I come off like a know-it-all, and a lot of times I put my foot in my mouth. I realize that other people have good points to make, and that really helps to set me straight. Thanks all of you people out there (Jamie, Neil, Daniel, James etc.) for keeping the debate going. This is good stuff. Maybe we can come up with a good solution if we all put our heads together.
 
Old 03-08-2004, 12:02 AM   #1168
Neil Mick
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Quote:
James Giles wrote:
Hey Neil, I can see your point. I want to understand why these Islamic terrorists want to kill Christians and Jews. Do you have any idea why that is? Is it something that is written in their religious book (koran?)?
Is there really any difference between running a plane into a building, or running a bulldozer over an unsuspecting household?

Is there a difference between strapping a bomb to yourself to blow up innocents, or dropping Israeli bomblets on innocent's heads, only to be found later and picked up by children?

You might say that there is: others do not. Some Zionist fanatics don't see the difference, either. And the cycle continues.

But no: it isn't written in the Koran to go and kill (altho I admit I am going on secondary sources...I haven't read the book).
 
Old 03-08-2004, 12:25 AM   #1169
James Giles
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Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Is there really any difference between running a plane into a building, or running a bulldozer over an unsuspecting household? You might say that there is: others do not. Some Zionist fanatics don't see the difference, either. And the cycle continues.
I would say there is no difference. I am just wondering what is really going on. I don't mean to be anti-semitic or anything, but I know a lot of our media is owned by Jewish people, and I am wondering if Israel is doing some bad stuff that we don't know about over here in the States. I mean, the media always makes it look like Israel is walking the straight and narrow.

I believe if Israel is acting cruelly are doing anything unethical toward the Muslim population, the U.S. should withdraw its support of Israel. It is really a shame that we cannot get reliable reports from our media.
Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
But no: it isn't written in the Koran to go and kill (altho I admit I am going on secondary sources...I haven't read the book).
I haven't read it either, but I have heard there are a few passages in there about "jihad" which urges followers to force Islam on the world, even if it requires killing those who resist.
 
Old 03-08-2004, 07:56 AM   #1170
DanielR
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Quote:
Neil wrote:
Is there really any difference between running a plane into a building, or running a bulldozer over an unsuspecting household?

Is there a difference between strapping a bomb to yourself to blow up innocents, or dropping Israeli bomblets on innocent's heads, only to be found later and picked up by children?

You might say that there is: others do not. Some Zionist fanatics don't see the difference, either. And the cycle continues.
Well, I do see a difference; does it make me a Zionist fanatic? Or maybe one doesn't need to be a fanatic, of any kind, to disagree with the above comparisons?

We've been through this. But I'm always up for going through this again.

The cycle continues because noone has a better solution.

The bulldozers are run over houses of terrorists, houses which terrorists use to launch attacks, and territories that are allocated for the security fence (a controvercial issue by itself). Rolling this up into the term "an unsuspecting household" is quite misleading.

Israeli bombs kill innocent civilians. However, they do not target innocent civilians.

If I had to try, the only similarity between running a plane into a building and running a bulldozer over a house I could imagine one might claim is that the 9/11 attack was targeting not innocent civilians but the guilty (in the eyes of Alqaeda) country, and so in this sense there's no difference between killing a number of innocent civilians in a Gaza raid after militants, and the plane attack.

The same logic, however, can be used to justify Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Daniel
 
Old 03-08-2004, 08:13 AM   #1171
DanielR
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James Giles wrote:
I know a lot of our media is owned by Jewish people, and I am wondering if Israel is doing some bad stuff that we don't know about over here in the States. I mean, the media always makes it look like Israel is walking the straight and narrow... It is really a shame that we cannot get reliable reports from our media.
James, what in this report, for instance, leads you to believe that a Jewish CNN editor has left something out?

The facts are all known. It's up to you to interpret them, or, if you prefer a simpler way, to believe someone who'll do it for you.

Daniel
 
Old 03-08-2004, 11:40 AM   #1172
Neil Mick
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Daniel Rozenbaum (DanielR) wrote:
Well, I do see a difference; does it make me a Zionist fanatic? Or maybe one doesn't need to be a fanatic, of any kind, to disagree with the above comparisons?
Fanatics DON'T see a difference. This is my point...the fact that you (and I) do puts us out of the fanatic-camp.
Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum (DanielR) wrote:
The bulldozers are run over houses of terrorists, houses which terrorists use to launch attacks, and territories that are allocated for the security fence (a controvercial issue by itself). Rolling this up into the term "an unsuspecting household" is quite misleading.
ALL houses bulldozed are "houses of terrorists?" Tell that to the household of the Pharmacist that Rachel Corrie was tryin to protect.
Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum (DanielR) wrote:
Israeli bombs kill innocent civilians. However, they do not target innocent civilians.
The dead civilians are comforted by the knowledge that they weren't the targets, no doubt.
Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum (DanielR) wrote:
If I had to try, the only similarity between running a plane into a building and running a bulldozer over a house I could imagine one might claim is that the 9/11 attack was targeting not innocent civilians but the guilty (in the eyes of Alqaeda) country, and so in this sense there's no difference between killing a number of innocent civilians in a Gaza raid after militants, and the plane attack.

The same logic, however, can be used to justify Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
I think we agree, here. Understand, I am not condoning suicide attacks: but fanatics (on both sides) see them as roughly equivalent, or the other side's attacks being worse.
 
Old 03-08-2004, 11:43 AM   #1173
Neil Mick
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Daniel Rozenbaum (DanielR) wrote:
James, what in this report, for instance, leads you to believe that a Jewish CNN editor has left something out?

The facts are all known. It's up to you to interpret them, or, if you prefer a simpler way, to believe someone who'll do it for you.
Sorry, it's not so simple, as that. The IDF has done its best to force int'l observers out from the Occupied Territories. I have heard numerous eye-witness accounts that speak of systemitized violence upon Palestinians. The full story of this violence often doesn't make it onto CNN.
 
Old 03-08-2004, 11:50 AM   #1174
Neil Mick
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James Giles wrote:
I would say there is no difference. I am just wondering what is really going on. I don't mean to be anti-semitic or anything, but I know a lot of our media is owned by Jewish people, and I am wondering if Israel is doing some bad stuff that we don't know about over here in the States. I mean, the media always makes it look like Israel is walking the straight and narrow.

I believe if Israel is acting cruelly are doing anything unethical toward the Muslim population, the U.S. should withdraw its support of Israel. It is really a shame that we cannot get reliable reports from our media.
I agree. But, because the Israeli gov't and their lobbyists over in the States have such a strong pull over here, the chances are that we're not ever going to hear the full news on CNN, or that the US gov't will do more than issue vague warnings and threats to both sides.
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James Giles wrote:
I haven't read it either, but I have heard there are a few passages in there about "jihad" which urges followers to force Islam on the world, even if it requires killing those who resist.
The whole thing about "jihad" is miscategorized and taken out of historical perspective. This, from a primer on Islam, might help:
Quote:
The Qur'an does NOT call upon Muslims to KILL all non-Muslims. It calls for the destruction of "infidels," meaning principally Arabs who, during the time of Muhammad, practiced idolatry and polytheism. Again: this is a seventh-century book, produced in a specific historical context! It, and the Muslim religion, should be studied and understood objectively, dispassionately. Islam emerged very quickly, and within decades united under its banner-the banner of monotheism---the various tribes of Arabia. Its violent rejection of idolatry, however offensive to the modern, secular, humanist mind, is hardly unique. It can be compared to the ferocious suppression in Christian Europe of paganism (often associated with witchcraft).

And for perspective, while the Qur'an does call for the extermination of "infidels," the Old Testament is replete with its own exhortations to genocide. According to the Biblical narrative (of dubious historicity, but believed by hundreds of millions), the Hebrews under Joshua's leadership, invading Canaan from Egypt, killed twelve thousand "men and women together" in the town of Ai-because God wanted them to (Joshua 8:25). The Hebrews put all the people of Hazor to the sword (they "wiped them all out; they did not leave one living soul." Judges 11:14). The poetics of hatred are as conspicuous in the Bible as in the Qur'an. A personal favorite of mine, from Psalm 137, refers to the Babylonians: "A blessing on him who takes and dashes your babies against the rock!" Such references are characteristic of Judeo-Christian-Islamic literature, and are best examined in historical perspective.
 
Old 03-08-2004, 12:30 PM   #1175
Neil Mick
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Daniel Rozenbaum (DanielR) wrote:
James, what in this report, for instance, leads you to believe that a Jewish CNN editor has left something out?

The facts are all known. It's up to you to interpret them, or, if you prefer a simpler way, to believe someone who'll do it for you.
Actually, quite a lot of significant detail was left out in that CNN report.

For instance, look at a Ha'aretz article of the same event...

Notice? The CNN report fails to mention that this was a provocative attack, meant to draw out the militants.
Quote:
According to the IDF, the operation's goal was to strike a blow at armed Palestinian groups involved in firing mortars, antitank rockets and bombs at military and civilian targets in the Gaza Strip - and the method was to provoke these groups into an armed confrontation by the IDF presence in the camp.

In that, the operation succeeded: As soon as news of the soldiers' presence spread, dozens of Palestinian gunmen converged on the site, and the two groups began exchanging fire.
Interestingly, the CNN report also suggests that the attacks were a follow-up of the PA Erez operation, while Ha'aretz reports that the IDF states there was no connection.

Notice in the CNN report that no mention is made of the identities of the children, with the only Palestinian official quoted at all was the PA Interior Minister. Ha'aretz, to its credit, at least gave a beief account of the varied reactions of Palestinian's, and the press.

Most significantly, tho: compare the CNN account of civilian deaths, in the incident. CNN simply takes the word of spokeswoman Batsheva Genut, when she accused Palestinian militants of using civilians as "human shields." The Ha'aretz article (which is hardly a mouthpiece for the PA) goes much farther, and states that
Quote:
When day broke, hundreds of civilians, some of them throwing rocks, poured into the streets to join the armed men, who continued firing from among the crowd. This is when most of the civilian casualties occurred. In contrast, most of the armed Palestinians were killed during the night fighting, mainly by Israeli sniper fire.
So, sorry Daniel: even by a cursory comparison with Ha'aretz--it is easy to see how CNN leaves salient details out, oversimplifies the Palestinian response, and accepts the foreign ministry account of the incident without further investigation.
 

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