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Old 09-06-2002, 11:20 AM   #176
virginia_kyu
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Arlington, Virginia
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Re: Stop learning aikido

Brian, I think he was referring to me.
Quote:
Xent Lee (Xentilius) wrote:
Neal, I think u should'nt have learned aikido. Aikido fosters the mind to be more peaceful and harmonious, while u had thoughts of killing people. (On the topic, : Choose Death or Possible Death ) I think u should give up Aikido or any martial arts, and take up hunting instead.
What???
Quote:
You would like to quarrel with other people and copy the whole chunk of what the person had said and insult the person. A person who is trained in Aikido should be able to reflect on what he has said, and whether he is correct or not. He should be willing to accept ideas from other people. If the other person is wrong, calmy and gently tell the person why you think this way.
Please read my thread on the Misuse of Aikido, I think you can learn from it. Also I don't see people accusing me of being a "liar", "coward", and "lowlife" qualifies as "ideas from other people."
Quote:
Sincerely, if you still do not reflect on your attitude, i think you should stop Aikido immediately.

This is not related to the topic on Invasion of Iraq. Forgive me for posting my views here.

With all do respect to you pal, please don't lecture me on what is proper Aikido behavior. If you took the time to read the entire discussion here you would find plenty of examples of other people acting in the unholy "un-Aiky" way.

This is really funny though that I have people that follow me all over these forums to attack me.

-- Michael Neal
-- http://www.theaikidolink.dnsdyn.net/
 
Old 09-06-2002, 11:24 AM   #177
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
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Quote:
Michael Neal (virginia_kyu) wrote:
Neil, who exactly is name calling here? I am not the one here calling people "liars", "cowards", and "lowlifes." It is incredible how it all of sudden it becomes me who is the one name calling here. Again my statments about you two is dead on, you twist the facts to suit yourself at any given time.
All I ask is that you use facts, instead of pointles name-calling ("Barbara Lee is a wacko," is my personal favorite) to buttress your views.
Quote:
Michael Neal (virginia_kyu) wrote:
And I think since I pointed this out you two got so pissed off you decided the only way to respond is to launch personal attacks against me.

If you guys want to take the gloves off so be it.

I would like to add to this list but I don't want to use that kind of language here.

This aikido sensei seems like a very wise man.

Maybe its because they think you are nuts.

This is exactly what you are doing here Neil, can't you see it. Yout little withch hunt here against me is precisely a campaign of half-truths, misquotations, and lies.

Nowhere did I concede defeat here Neil, I did decide that I did not have all day to do research for my posts here, I did jokingly say "You win" (notice the smiley face next to the original post) but that certainly was not meant to be taken seriously man.

Again yet again you misrepresent me, saying that "you go around this forum ASKING if it's 'un-Aiki' to discuss politics, with Aikido." That is a complete misrepresentation of my arguments on that thread.
I can provide your direct quote, if you like.
You asked this very question, in another thread.

Quote:
Michael Neal (virginia_kyu) wrote:
How dare you suggest that since I am new to Aikido that I should have no opinions.

I don't give a crap how many years you have had in Aikido dude, nobody is going to tell me to shut up because they think that they are more qualified to speak on political matters because they have more years of Aikido experience.
Nobody told you to "shut up:" did anyone say anything about qualifications, or being experts? Say whatever you want, just back it up with SOMETHING.

Quote:
Michael Neal (virginia_kyu) wrote:
If I were attempting to be an expert on Aikido techniques then I would be out of line, but politics? What Aikido experience makes you an expert on politics?

I really think you and Colleen are completely out of line here and you are trying to cover up your own weakenesses here by launching a personal slander attack against me.

And I can not believe that you somehow are trying to twist all of this and point fingers and me for being the one who is name calling.

There are two people here, you and Colleen, that are "dishonerable" and "disgusting."
Now, looking down this list, you say that this Sensei is "wise" for his outburst. IOW, you think that a person expresses "wisdom" when resorting to name calling.

You also seem to thin that I make personal, slanderous attacks.

I'm going to make this really simple for you, Michael, since you seem to have trouble understanding what "name calling" is. Show me 1 post here where I called you anything negative, where I said, "Michael is this or that."

And as far as half-truths, Michael, I am still waiting for any documentation of your points, any at all.

With respect, opinions with no basis in reality are no better than talk-radio rants. You don't like my facts, then come up with one's that you do.

But you can't, and so you say that I distort the truth.

Sad.


Last edited by Neil Mick : 09-06-2002 at 11:34 AM.
 
Old 09-06-2002, 11:43 AM   #178
Xentilius
 
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I was referring to virginia_kyu

...
 
Old 09-06-2002, 11:49 AM   #179
virginia_kyu
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Quote:
I'm going to make this really simple for you, Michael, since you seem to have trouble understanding what "name calling" is. Show me 1 post here where I called you anything negative, where I said, "Michael is this or that."
No I think Colleen makes personal slanderous attacks while you then try to "shame" me for some post that I decided I did not like and deleted.
Quote:
When Presidential support goes down, find some strongman (usually Arabic) out there to invade. Better if he has a mustache, we Americans seem to hate mustache's...
If that is not a great example of you twisting circumstances to your favor I don't know what is. So you are saying we are invading Iraq because we don't like mustaches?

I will entertain your request since you have really annoyed me beyond belief. I will spend my entire night going back and bringing up examples where you and Colleen have twisted the facts and relied on emotional appeal. I will post my reply sometime tommorow morning.
Quote:
And as far as half-truths, Michael, I am still waiting for any documentation of your points, any at all.
Which point would you like documented?

If you want to play this game lets go, for now on I also want to see documentation of your sources for your so called facts. Please go back and provide a bibliography for all of your previous posts and prove to us that you got it all from "legitimate" sources.

-- Michael Neal
-- http://www.theaikidolink.dnsdyn.net/
 
Old 09-06-2002, 11:55 AM   #180
akiy
 
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Hi folks,

Please take personal attacks and bickerings off of these Forums. Private messages or personal e-mail would be a more suitable place for such.

Continuation of such personal attacks and bickerings may result in the thread being closed and/or your account being deactivated.

Thank you.

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
 
Old 09-06-2002, 11:58 AM   #181
Paul Clark
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Mongo,
Quote:
Again please, you have provided some great information here but "American and French backing" is not very descriptive and sounds like someone leaning....also what were the other influences that resulted in the military coup.... what was happening in this area prior to '91? You're leaving some information out here. Are you talking about the weapons and training that were provided LONG before these elections? Exactly what support are you talking about?
Good questions, I can't do them justice here. If you really want good answers, I again recommend the chapter on Algeria in Judith Smith's book, "God Has 99 Names", which apart from what you may think the title implies, is a first-hand historical account of the birth, and growth, of Islamic movements across the Arab world from Morocco to Iran.
Quote:
If this is true Paul then why are they not all assiting them? Surly if this many people were to "unite" Israel wouldn't stand a chance
Well, they pretty much all are assisting them. Strangely, for doing so, they've been labelled "sponsors" or "supporters" of terrorism for their trouble. A great deal of the money for running the Palestinian Authority comes from donations of Arab League governments, a great deal also comes from charitable contributions of individuals in Arab countries. Militarlily, there's no point in their uniting against Israel--they would still have to fight the United States if they did, and they don't want to do that, nor could they win.
Quote:
Again with the generalizations, what do they actually base this on? How is it we're largely responsible for creating the Israel occupation? As even you stated, they've been there a very long time. The fact that the US position (established long ago) that both Israel and Palestine people should be able to co-exist in this area? is that it? Christ, how many people of Jewish decent live in America? Then and now? I don't know if you realize it Paul but you're saying the Arabs cannot co-exist with the Jewish population. America has done it for years and continues to do so as does many other countries. So, whats their problem? They couldn't manage their relationships, so that's somehow the US's fault. No.... this dog won't hunt.
I thought that was rather specific. "A long time" is relative. From the time that the Romans destroyed the Second Temple in 73 AD until 1918, there were very few Jews in Palestine (the Romans banned them after the 73 AD thing; that was the start of the "Diaspora" you hear so much about). YOu didn't get my point if you compare the Jewish population of Palestine to that of the US. The point was not that we or they can figure out a way to live together--Jews enjoyed protected status in Muslim empires from the conquest of Jerusalem (from the Byzantine empire, not a Jewish one) in 638 until the end of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. They lived together quite peacefully for 1300 years (much better, incidentally, than Jews fared in Europe during that same 1300 years). It was only when Jewish immigrants started arriving in large numbers in previously Ottoman Palestine between 1918 and 1947 intent on creating a new political entity called Israel that they met any systematic antagonism from the Arabs.
Quote:
Not all radical religious training is happening in the school system Paul. Let me elaborate, how about the religious training thats encouraging young people there to strap bombs to themselves and kill as many people as possible. Where is that training coming from Paul, the schools? I don't think so
True, but that's not "religious" training actually, even if someone is convincing these kids, contrary to actual Islamic law, that it's OK to commit suicide, in the name of religion or anything else. The war in Palestine isn't about religioin (except in the case of the Haram as-Sharif, or Temple Mount), it's about land, rights, freedom, self-determination--all good, Wilsonian ideals. A really great book for this, first one I ever read, was Thomas Friedman's "From Beirut to Jerusalem". He added a chapter last year to accomodate the new intefadeh.
Quote:
Stange that the Arab view of this is that it doesn't hold water yet, we don't see them offering another solution other than forcing the Israeli people to leave. The fact that we give the Israeli goverment "large sums of money" has little to do with this.
Actually, they did offer a solution last Spring--complete normalization of relations, or "peace", IAW 242 (the second bullet in the resolution I quoted earlier), renunciation of all states of belligerency, etc. The Arab league all signed up to it, except Iraq. In return, all they want is what the other part of the UN resolution has always required--complete withdrawal of Israel from territories occupied in the 1967 war. That doesn't mean they want the Israelis to leave anything, except the occupied territories. that's hard for the Israelis to swallow for a number of complex reasons, which I'll save for another post if you ask.

The fact that we give the Israelis large sums of money does matter. Israel is the largest single recipient of US grant aid (which isn't like the loan guarantees we just gave Brazil--we co-signed for their notes, which isn't real money), which means actual dollars we GIVE to Israel, not loan, give. Total since '73 estimated over 100 billion.

That money pays for the Israeli military's weapons which are used to kill Palestinians. the money is used (indirectly, not the exact dollar, but a one-for-one replacement) to fund the Israeli goverment's incentive programs that make it much more affordable for Israelis to build homes and live in occupied territory than in Israel proper. It's OK to say this "should not" matter to anyone, but the fact is that it does to THEM,and to a lot of Israelis by the way, and that's why they blame us--for paying for the Israelis to make the problems progressively harder to solve.
Quote:
I consider your answers very good and short enough for me, I'm really enjoying this discussion. Also, don't get me wrong. I certainly don't believe the major Arab population hates all Americans. But when a radical group shows up they certainly don't do a lot to discourage them either....
The governments actually do quite a lot to discourage the radical groups, you just don't hear about what doesn't happen. THey miss some of course. It's helpful to point out, for example, that the Saudis didn't figure out how to prevent 15 of their citizens from hijacking airplanes on US soil on 9/11. It's even more helpful to point out that neither did we, and most of them had been in the US legally, not in Saudi Arabia, more or less continuously for 2-3 years. On the one hand folks accuse the Saudis (and others) of not trying very hard, or they'd have succeeded in preventing the attack. But, that means that they'd have been better than our guys if they'd just been trying, since we must presume the FBI and CIA and local law enforcement in the US would have been trying their hardest to prevent the same events, and they didn't succeed. The inescapable conclusion is that no matter how good or how motivated the Saudis might have been in attempting to prevent radicals of their own from attacking the US, they could not have been successful without being better than our people or significantly luckier.

Paul
 
Old 09-06-2002, 12:00 PM   #182
Brian H
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
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Quote:
Xent Lee (Xentilius) wrote:
I was referring to virginia_kyu

...
That does not mean anything.

I have been staying away from discussions of "Aikido technique and practice" in this forum. I study that in the dojo. Outside the dojo I just live my life and that life is shaped, in part, by my practice of Aikido.

As the tone of this thread has become harsh, I have moderated my own. It seemed like the right thing to do.

I am just saying that it is great to confront someone who you feel is wrong. Try to convince them why instead of sending them away.


Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 09-06-2002, 12:04 PM   #183
akiy
 
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Quote:
Brian Heanue (Brian H) wrote:
As the tone of this thread has become harsh, I have moderated my own. It seemed like the right thing to do.
And for that, I thank you.

-- Jun

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Old 09-06-2002, 12:10 PM   #184
Brian H
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Paul,

my head is still dizzy because of your assertion than France was united with America on an issue? The whole concept is difficult to hold on to and I think I may drop it.

Last edited by Brian H : 09-06-2002 at 12:12 PM.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 09-06-2002, 12:17 PM   #185
Paul Clark
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Brian,

Well, figure it has to happen once every 225 years or so. Last time may have been when the French navy stood off Yorktown and helped cement the defeat of Cornwallis and the end of the Revolutionary War . . .

I don't know that we acted in concert with the French--although that may also be, I didn't mean to imply that it happened. Each of us, independently at least, encouraged the military to take over the government and annul the results of the election.

Paul
 
Old 09-06-2002, 12:59 PM   #186
Brian H
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Quote:
Paul Clark wrote:
Brian,

Each of us, independently at least, encouraged the military to take over the government and annul the results of the election.
Ahhhh. For a second I thought you were talking about Florida recount. I don't think Katherine Harris was riding around in a black helicopter

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 09-06-2002, 01:18 PM   #187
Paul Clark
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Oops,

then to be clear, so I don't get into trouble, we and the French encouraged the military in Algeria to annul their election, NOT in Florida.

Paul
 
Old 09-06-2002, 01:24 PM   #188
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
Hi folks,

Please take personal attacks and bickerings off of these Forums. Private messages or personal e-mail would be a more suitable place for such.

Continuation of such personal attacks and bickerings may result in the thread being closed and/or your account being deactivated.

Thank you.

-- Jun
Thank you, Jun, for this post. Personal attacks are a pointless waste of time, and do nothing but get a person defensive.

Again: attack the opinion, not the person...no matter what side of the fence you're on, in this issue.
 
Old 09-06-2002, 01:29 PM   #189
virginia_kyu
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Quote:
Thank you, Jun, for this post. Personal attacks are a pointless waste of time, and do nothing but get a person defensive.

Again: attack the opinion, not the person...no matter what side of the fence you're on, in this issue.
lol

-- Michael Neal
-- http://www.theaikidolink.dnsdyn.net/
 
Old 09-06-2002, 01:34 PM   #190
Brian H
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Can we zip our flies and hide the rulers, or are we just done?

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 09-06-2002, 02:00 PM   #191
Neil Mick
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Quote:
Michael Neal (virginia_kyu) wrote:
No I think Colleen makes personal slanderous attacks while you then try to "shame" me for some post that I decided I did not like and deleted.
Well, you have a point, here. One of the great things about this forum is that you can express a view, and then go back and edit it, later.

So, for "trying to 'shame' you," I apologize.

The old saw: "if you don't like America, then leave," gets me really steamed. I was more commenting upon this line of thinking in particular, and character assasination in general.


Quote:
Michael Neal (virginia_kyu) wrote:
If that is not a great example of you twisting circumstances to your favor I don't know what is. So you are saying we are invading Iraq because we don't like mustaches?
It's called "wit," Michael. You know: humor? Do you REALLY think I believe we attack countries for the hair content on the upper lips of their leaders (although...Hitler had a mustache,,,,Hussein has 1....and so does Kadaffiy....hey. Waitaminute... )
Quote:
Michael Neal (virginia_kyu) wrote:
I will entertain your request since you have really annoyed me beyond belief. I will spend my entire night going back and bringing up examples where you and Colleen have twisted the facts and relied on emotional appeal. I will post my reply sometime tommorow morning.

Which point would you like documented?

If you want to play this game lets go, for now on I also want to see documentation of your sources for your so called facts. Please go back and provide a bibliography for all of your previous posts and prove to us that you got it all from "legitimate" sources.
Oh Michael, Michael, Michael. Please read my earlier post, on "winning points," versus "exchanging ideas."

Please, don't stay up all night to out document me. Your wife will begin to hate you (my girlfriend is already starting to grouse about me), and I don't want a divorce on my conscience.

And you don't have to spend lots of time researching. It's easy, and I'll show you how.

When Mongo asked me about Iraq and the US opinion of Hussein in 1990, I went to googol.com and typed in "Saddam Hussein US involvement history" keywords. I went through the websites suggested and started quoting some of their points, especially when they refer to historical facts buttressing my argument.

All told, this took me about 10 minutes to research.

Now, if you disagree (as Mongo did), it's fair to ask where I got that point. If he finds the quote biased or suspect, I can defend the reputation of my source, or I can find other sources to buttress my points.

This exchange can continue until either 1 side runs out of documentation, or s/he simply lack the interest or ideas to outmaneuver their debater. In effect, s/he is verbally "pinned."

A debate is, in many ways, a dojo of the mind. As in a dojo, there are etiquette rules of good conduct, and there are "low blows." Name calling and factless inflammatory rhetoric are all low blows, as is character assassination.

When I train, I am not interested in "destroying" uke. Even if I win, I lose. My major purpose is to test my assertions about certain principles and beliefs I have against the beliefs of others who may or may not agree. If I run out of ideas, I cease the debate.

The SOA, for instance. I no longer comment on it because I have offered my view, and there are others here with more experience than I, about the topic. I've never heard the "other side" before, and now I am richer, for the exchange. If I felt strongly about this issue, I would go and do more research to counter their points.
 
Old 09-06-2002, 02:19 PM   #192
Guest5678
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< Little snip here... >
Quote:
Paul Clark wrote:
Well, they pretty much all are assisting them. Strangely, for doing so, they've been labelled "sponsors" or "supporters" of terrorism for their trouble. A great deal of the money for running the Palestinian Authority comes from donations of Arab League governments, a great deal also comes from charitable contributions of individuals in Arab countries. Militarlily, there's no point in their uniting against Israel--they would still have to fight the United States if they did, and they don't want to do that, nor could they win.

Thank you for coming out with this. And this differs from the US giving funds to Israel how.....?
Quote:
Paul Clark wrote:
I thought that was rather specific. "A long time" is relative. From the time that the Romans destroyed the Second Temple in 73 AD until 1918, there were very few Jews in Palestine (the Romans banned them after the 73 AD thing; that was the start of the "Diaspora" you hear so much about). YOu didn't get my point if you compare the Jewish population of Palestine to that of the US. The point was not that we or they can figure out a way to live together--Jews enjoyed protected status in Muslim empires from the conquest of Jerusalem (from the Byzantine empire, not a Jewish one) in 638 until the end of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. They lived together quite peacefully for 1300 years (much better, incidentally, than Jews fared in Europe during that same 1300 years). It was only when Jewish immigrants started arriving in large numbers in previously Ottoman Palestine between 1918 and 1947 intent on creating a new political entity called Israel that they met any systematic antagonism from the Arabs.
Does this not sound like normal evolution to you? The Israeli people grew stronger and the Palestine people gave way. Man if I had a dime for every instance of this throughout history.... Still, it does not excuse either entity from not resolving their issues in a non-violent manner. Sounds kind of like our own past with the arrival of the "New Americans" and the resident "Native Americans" huh!?


Quote:
Paul Clark wrote:
True, but that's not "religious" training actually, even if someone is convincing these kids, contrary to actual Islamic law, that it's OK to commit suicide, in the name of religion or anything else. The war in Palestine isn't about religioin (except in the case of the Haram as-Sharif, or Temple Mount), it's about land, rights, freedom, self-determination--all good, Wilsonian ideals. A really great book for this, first one I ever read, was Thomas Friedman's "From Beirut to Jerusalem". He added a chapter last year to accomodate the new intefadeh.
Excuse me but it IS religious training when they are convinced that their God will award them in the end. This is what they believe and that is after all, what religion boils down to, what one believes.
Quote:
Paul Clark wrote:
Actually, they did offer a solution last Spring--complete normalization of relations, or "peace", IAW 242 (the second bullet in the resolution I quoted earlier), renunciation of all states of belligerency, etc. The Arab league all signed up to it, except Iraq. In return, all they want is what the other part of the UN resolution has always required--complete withdrawal of Israel from territories occupied in the 1967 war. That doesn't mean they want the Israelis to leave anything, except the occupied territories. that's hard for the Israelis to swallow for a number of complex reasons, which I'll save for another post if you ask.

The fact that we give the Israelis large sums of money does matter. Israel is the largest single recipient of US grant aid (which isn't like the loan guarantees we just gave Brazil--we co-signed for their notes, which isn't real money), which means actual dollars we GIVE to Israel, not loan, give. Total since '73 estimated over 100 billion.

That money pays for the Israeli military's weapons which are used to kill Palestinians. the money is used (indirectly, not the exact dollar, but a one-for-one replacement) to fund the Israeli goverment's incentive programs that make it much more affordable for Israelis to build homes and live in occupied territory than in Israel proper. It's OK to say this "should not" matter to anyone, but the fact is that it does to THEM,and to a lot of Israelis by the way, and that's why they blame us--for paying for the Israelis to make the problems progressively harder to solve.
Perhaps you should read back to your own words where you state that the other Arab people are also providing funds to the Palestine cause. Are you going to try and tell me now that those funds are not being used to kill Isreali people? So I guess it's ok for the Arabs to fund palestine in this manner but not for the US and Israel?Interesting...


Quote:
Paul Clark wrote:
The governments actually do quite a lot to discourage the radical groups, you just don't hear about what doesn't happen. THey miss some of course. It's helpful to point out, for example, that the Saudis didn't figure out how to prevent 15 of their citizens from hijacking airplanes on US soil on 9/11. It's even more helpful to point out that neither did we, and most of them had been in the US legally, not in Saudi Arabia, more or less continuously for 2-3 years. On the one hand folks accuse the Saudis (and others) of not trying very hard, or they'd have succeeded in preventing the attack. But, that means that they'd have been better than our guys if they'd just been trying, since we must presume the FBI and CIA and local law enforcement in the US would have been trying their hardest to prevent the same events, and they didn't succeed. The inescapable conclusion is that no matter how good or how motivated the Saudis might have been in attempting to prevent radicals of their own from attacking the US, they could not have been successful without being better than our people or significantly luckier.

Paul
We certainly can't blame the Saudis for what the 15 meatheads did. No way to catch that. But you cannot, no matter how hard you try, convience me they didn't know about ubl and the danger associated with that group. Only after we started kicking butt did they denounce them and sever all ties..... little late in my book...

Also, I'd be very interested in hearing some of the ways they have discouraged the radicals because you're correct, we don't hear much... or see much for that matter.

-Mongo
 
Old 09-06-2002, 02:23 PM   #193
Brian H
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
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Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
I've never heard the "other side" before, and now I am richer, for the exchange.
OUTSTANDING STATEMENT!!!!!

Could you please give me your thoughts about my earlier post concerning the Church of the Nativity (it kind of got knocked back in the shuffle)?

You have been lobbing some stones at actions and missteps by the "hawk" faction and your views concerning what I view as troubling action by the "dove" side would be great.

Brian

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 09-06-2002, 02:25 PM   #194
Neil Mick
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Quote:
Brian Heanue (Brian H) wrote:
Neil, I have one serious question for you (I'm not sure if you were involved or not).

One activist group was involved in the incident in Israel where there was a hostage/barricade incident in the Church of the Nativity. They went beyond acting as mere observers and attempted to get into the church and bring in supplies to those inside during intense negotiations.

Setting aside the grievances, merits and baggage that the IDF and the gunmen had, the incident involved a number of innocent civilians inside the church. (The Frontline show about the incident deserves an award)

Was that the right thing to do?
So much flaming, it's hard to see through the smoke sometimes.

This is an excellent point, and illustrates an essential and missing element in debate in American society.

The mainstream news commented that hostile Palestinian gunmen had broken into the Church of the Nativity and held hostage several of the priests and lay ppl.

As with many issues, there is another side to this story, and Frontline neglected to cover some important details.

The story I heard was that the clergy were not hostage at all; in fact, they were there on their own free will. There were sick and injured ppl inside, and the clergy were there to help minimize the violence against the Palestinians. The "gunmen" offered to let them go (a few did), but the rest stayed on of their own free will.

Why did the media not report this side of the story?

The mainstream media, most of which is owned by 6 corporations, censors the editorial direction of the corporate mainstream media. It's not like 1984, with Big Brother looking over your shoulder. It's more like self-censorship: certain stories get killed or slanted by the editors, or the writers themselves downplay some angles deemed not "newsworthy."

"A circus dog that jumps when a trainer cracks the whip is fine, but best is the dog who jumps, with no whip at all."

Every year, a group called Project Censored (they have a website) lists the 10-most censored stories of the year: stories that should have gotten major attention, but were pushed to the side.

A major example of this phenomenon is the writer Jack Webb, formerly of the San Jose Mercury, who write the "Dark Alliance" series on the connection between Bush I and the crack pipeline from S. America. He wrote of his experience in an extremely well documented book, of the same name as his series.

Anyway, I wasn't involved in that episode (but I was trying to get over there, at the time). The group I was with was composed of Palestinian and Israeli peace activists, and it's conceivable that they would have asked me to go to Bethlehem. If they had, I would have gone.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 09-06-2002 at 02:29 PM.
 
Old 09-06-2002, 02:38 PM   #195
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Quote:
Xent Lee (Xentilius) wrote:
I was referring to virginia_kyu

...
Apologies for the misunderstanding. I still feel, however, that no one should be told to "go practice hunting, instead of Aikido" because they have views counter to the group philosophy.

Beaten with soft pillows and stoned with water balloons, maybe, but...
 
Old 09-06-2002, 02:49 PM   #196
Paul Clark
Dojo: Yellow Springs Aikido
Location: Dayton, Ohio
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Mongo,
Quote:
Does this not sound like normal evolution to you? The Israeli people grew stronger and the Palestine people gave way. Man if I had a dime for every instance of this throughout history.... Still, it does not excuse either entity from not resolving their issues in a non-violent manner. Sounds kind of like our own past with the arrival of the "New Americans" and the resident "Native Americans" huh!?
Ahh, yes, the "Law of the Jungle" theory of international relation--the strong eat the weak. Strange to hear an American say that out loud as though it represents the "American way" somehow--perhaps it does, but that confirms the Arabs' opinions of our motives. This is a sub-school of the "Realist" school, which postulates a never ending balance of power character to the world system. The contrasting school is the idealists, who believe that human nature is not inevitably disposed to eternal war, and therefore power politics isn't the only way, we can maybe do better. I tend to be a realist, but I'm not a sub-school "Law of the Jungle" guy. Seems to me it's in everyone's interest for that idea to have petered out in the 19th century sometime. That notion that it should have or ought to, incidentally, is the underpinning of the concept of the United Nations as a "system of world governance" of a sort. Itd doesn't work too well, or not real consistently, at least not yet, but it's not a bad idea.
Quote:
Also, I'd be very interested in hearing some of the ways they have discouraged the radicals because you're correct, we don't hear much... or see much for that matter
Books and journals are the only place to find that stuff--it doesn't show up on TV, nor in the papers. it's the product of scholarly research generally. Here's a good link, though, from a reuptable scholar at a top notch institution:

http://csis.org/burke/saudi21/SaudiWarTerr030302.pdf
Quote:
But you cannot, no matter how hard you try, convience me they didn't know about ubl and the danger associated with that group.
No point in trying to, then. They did revoke his citizenship in 1996 and he's been PNG in Saudi with a price on his head (quite literally) ever since.
Quote:
Thank you for coming out with this. And this differs from the US giving funds to Israel how.....?
We clearly proceed from different points of reference on the Israeli-Palestinian thing, is it a chicken or an egg? If we can stake out those points of reference, we might be able to sort that out, but maybe not. What's your opinion as to what the issues are there, how it got that way, etc.?

Paul
 
Old 09-06-2002, 03:30 PM   #197
virginia_kyu
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Location: Arlington, Virginia
Join Date: May 2002
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Quote:
Oh Michael, Michael, Michael. Please read my earlier post, on "winning points," versus "exchanging ideas."

Please, don't stay up all night to out document me. Your wife will begin to hate you (my girlfriend is already starting to grouse about me), and I don't want a divorce on my conscience.

And you don't have to spend lots of time researching. It's easy, and I'll show you how.

When Mongo asked me about Iraq and the US opinion of Hussein in 1990, I went to googol.com and typed in "Saddam Hussein US involvement history" keywords. I went through the websites suggested and started quoting some of their points, especially when they refer to historical facts buttressing my argument.

All told, this took me about 10 minutes to research.

Now, if you disagree (as Mongo did), it's fair to ask where I got that point. If he finds the quote biased or suspect, I can defend the reputation of my source, or I can find other sources to buttress my points.

This exchange can continue until either 1 side runs out of documentation, or s/he simply lack the interest or ideas to outmaneuver their debater. In effect, s/he is verbally "pinned."

A debate is, in many ways, a dojo of the mind. As in a dojo, there are etiquette rules of good conduct, and there are "low blows." Name calling and factless inflammatory rhetoric are all low blows, as is character assassination.

When I train, I am not interested in "destroying" uke. Even if I win, I lose. My major purpose is to test my assertions about certain principles and beliefs I have against the beliefs of others who may or may not agree. If I run out of ideas, I cease the debate.

The SOA, for instance. I no longer comment on it because I have offered my view, and there are others here with more experience than I, about the topic. I've never heard the "other side" before, and now I am richer, for the exchange. If I felt strongly about this issue, I would go and do more research to counter their points.
In all fairness Neil, how can you say that you don't believe that this is about winning and losing yet post the following:
Quote:
neil mick wrote:
I've debated both Mongo and Michael, and they both left, conceding defeat and vowing not to return.
I have a project due this evening but afterwards I will have plenty of free time to go back and review those posts. I have already dedicated myself to it.

-- Michael Neal
-- http://www.theaikidolink.dnsdyn.net/
 
Old 09-06-2002, 03:46 PM   #198
Kevin Leavitt
 
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I am very disappointed in the postings in this thread. There are several members of my dojo that seem to be more concerned at bashing egos than really trying to reach an understanding of issues. and you have to face each other in the dojo!!!!

You may not share my sentiments on this issue, but I think if you consider yourself aikidoka that you should be more concerned with resolving conflict than throwing rhetoric around and nit picking.

I sincerely hope that you continue to study aikido and that one day it may help you see that we humans waste alot of time satisfying our own egos to the point of hating, arguing, and killing.

This said, since I am getting to the point where it is getting difficult for me to say anything constructive or nice so, I am signing off these types of threads until I see a higher level of maturation from some of my fellow aikidoka.

Look forward to training with you on the mat! Hope you can resolve your personal issues and work cooperatively with each other in the dojo.

 
Old 09-06-2002, 04:12 PM   #199
Brian H
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 102
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More, More

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
As with many issues, there is another side to this story, and Frontline neglected to cover some important details.

The story I heard was that the clergy were not hostage at all; in fact, they were there on their own free will. There were sick and injured ppl inside, and the clergy were there to help minimize the violence against the Palestinians. The "gunmen" offered to let them go (a few did), but the rest stayed on of their own free will.

Why did the media not report this side of the story?
All true, but the clergy would have "had to stay" if others were not being held hostage.

My original question was and still is (short version) : "Was it alright for the activists to insert themselves into a gunbattle between Jews and Muslims over a Chistian holy place, where people were getting shot and killed each day and Japanese tourists were wandering in?"

Kevin, don't bail out yet (although I fear Colleen has)

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 
Old 09-06-2002, 05:55 PM   #200
Brian H
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 102
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OK so I am kind of a jerk for asking Neil about something so close to his heart.

I do not question his selflessly on this issue. His heart is in the right place.

He has (rightly) asked many of us to confront issues near and dear to our hearts, such as "Patriotism"," Nationalism" and "America's role in the World."

I seek to do the same.

I have practiced with Kevin for a while now and would described his Aikido as "Intense, but sincere." I hope that his how I comport myself in this debate.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
 

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