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Old 07-21-2006, 08:51 AM   #151
Ron Tisdale
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Re: What is the One Point?

Thank you...that makes perfect sense! I appreciate the explanation.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 07-21-2006, 11:07 AM   #152
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Ted, I think this sort of loose definition will get short shrift in the Asian community. There is only one Ki. The attributes and characteristics of Ki are set. True... different instructors may give different definitions, in some cases, but I guarantee that's because of what the instructor knows and how complete he understands things (or how big a spiel he's trying to sell), not because there are valid "differences" in what Ki/Qi is.

Start somewhere logically and try to "change" the meaning of what Ki is and what it does and watch the pit open... the logical connections mean that someone winging it with his own definition is only going to pratfall.

FWIW

Mike
There maybe only one Ki, but there are many people who have been discussing it all over Asia for thousands of years. That in itself, leads to a variety of interpretations. Personally I find it better to take things case-by-case, rather than try to lump everything into a ki/kokyu/jin/qi/prana phenomena. The more I read, the more skeptical I am in assuming that people are all talking about the same thing, even though they may be using the same word or equivalent.

Kalaripayit is different than Wu Shu which is different than Aikido, yet they all appear to share the same tradition. The theories behind each martial art is as wide and varied as the people who practice them. To deny that diversity in order to quickly arrive at some generalize understanding shows a lack of critical thinking.

This case-by-case approach becomes important especially if you look at Koichi Tohei. I mentioned in another thread that I thought he was non-traditional. His concepts did not seem to me, to fall within the boundaries of traditional Japanese definitions. He based his concepts not only by what he was taught by Morihei Ueshiba, but also Tetsuju Ogura of Ichikukai Dojo and Tenpu Nakamura of Tenpukai. Added to this was his experience and understanding.

Normally experience in this area is only personal, however K. Tohei actively researched what he was doing with his top people. It would be their combined efforts that would slowly change the way things were done so that he would eventually re-evaluate his own basic principles and concepts. Many of these changes were communicated from instructor to instructor within the Ki Society. Other changes were published by K. Tohei, although several of his recent books are only available in Japanese.

If you're interested in where this type of research is leading, go to Hawaii Ki Aikido and look at the archives with articles by Curtis Sensei. Because of Suzuki Sensei, the Maui Ki Society has been especially involved in breathing exercises and ki development. Because they're in Hawaii, they've had close contact to Ki Society Hq. over the years, yet still write in English.

Last edited by tedehara : 07-21-2006 at 11:10 AM.

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Old 07-21-2006, 11:29 AM   #153
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
There maybe only one Ki, but there are many people who have been discussing it all over Asia for thousands of years. That in itself, leads to a variety of interpretations.
Not really. Lots of different discussions lead a lot of westerners to feel like there are a number of things that are Ki, but that's not true, Ted.
Quote:
Kalaripayit is different than Wu Shu which is different than Aikido, yet they all appear to share the same tradition. The theories behind each martial art is as wide and varied as the people who practice them. To deny that diversity in order to quickly arrive at some generalize understanding shows a lack of critical thinking.
I don't deny the diversity in the various usages and approaches to Ki in various martial arts, qigongs, medical treatments, what-have-you. What I'm saying is that the core concept is immutable and fixed, despite various in presentation, levels of skill, approaches to development, etc. If it was truly different things, the core wouldn't be at the heart of such a broad spectrum of Asian arts, Ted.
Quote:
This case-by-case approach becomes important especially if you look at Koichi Tohei. I mentioned in another thread that I thought he was non-traditional. His concepts did not seem to me, to fall within the boundaries of traditional Japanese definitions. He based his concepts not only by what he was taught by Morihei Ueshiba, but also Tetsuju Ogura of Ichikukai Dojo and Tenpu Nakamura of Tenpukai. Added to this was his experience and understanding.
None of that changes the core of the "Ki" that he demonstrates and talks about, Ted. There are guys in southern China that mix up all kinds of magical nonsense into discussions and rationales for the "qi" and "Empty Force" stuff in a quasi-religious and 'different' presentation they make to the public... but at core they are basing their schtick around some immutable principles. Heck, some of them even "start fires" with their qi or do lots of other bogus tricks for qi demonstrations (this is where Ki/qi gets a bad name, BTW), but at heart they're taking advantage of some principles that are the same throughout all the Asian arts. Is that clearer?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-22-2006, 07:51 PM   #154
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Well, Tohei's descriptions of Universal Ki, etc., tend to focus, in my opinion, on the mystical, but rather than dwell on that maybe it's quicker to lay out a few rapid comments related to my earlier simplification of 3 general area in a previous post:

"Ultimately, there is (1.) the mental manipulation and strengthening of forces and some usually-autonomic areas of the body's fascia-related structures, (2.) the strengthening all over of the fascia-related structures, and (3.) a type of "feeling" or even a real set of electro-magnetic phenomena related to the fascia-related structures. This set of 3 main features are the holistic makeup of the body's "ki". Everything described as "ki" is going to be some combination of those factors. "
There is nothing in traditional texts that talk about fascia-related structures. This indicates to me that this is a modern western concept trying to retain the physical model for Ki. There has yet to be anything that relates any meridians or Ki flow to points in the fascia structure.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
You can research the rough 3 areas I laid out pretty easily, in order to see how widespread they are in Asia. Just for starters, the essence of Kokyu force is the same as jin in China and is the same as shakti in India. Ki is Qi is Prana. That begins to give you an idea of how widespread the foundational stuff is and why someone can't just make up things without relegating themselves as an oddity.
People make-up things all the time. They don't present their definitions as "oddities" but as the "true" or "pure" idea of Ki or Qi or Prana. When they do that, you have to be aware they are presenting something different than the norm.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The idea of "energy flows" through the body and using "chakras" is common throughout Asia.
The ideas of Plato and Aristotle have been around western philosophy for a long time, but that doesn't make every western philosopher a Platonist or Aristotelian. Just because energy flow and chakras have been concepts in Asia, doesn't mean everyone agrees with them or views them in the same manner.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The ultimate goal of all "meditation" is to literally move the sexual essence up through the spinal column to the head.
Tell that to a Zen monk. I'm sure he will be surprised.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
All throughout Asia. The acupuncture theory relates to the systematic study of these flows and how they work in relation to strength and health. Manipulating the body in certain postures improves the ability to use strength and therefore it becomes part of the "energy flows" idea and you have people holding certain postures to enhance energy. Think of sitting and standing in certain postures. Holding the fingers in certain ways like Indian gods and Buddha do. Even O-Sensei believed in the ancient ideas of holding things in certain ways for "energy flows":
http://www.budodojo.com/chinkon-kishin.htm

Look at the small picture of him sitting and using "Lin", from the ancient Chinese Jiuzi Miling (Nine Esoteric Seals)... same set of seals that westerners remember the "Ninja" used.

The strengthening of the fascia-related structures is done through breathing tensions and pressures and stretches. It's in yoga, qigongs, Chinese martial arts, Indonesian m.a.'s, Indian m.a.'s, etc. It's the reason Ueshiba was shown with a large, developed stomach in the picture he had painted of him. Same reason for the big belly of Buddha. These things, along with the subconscious mind, can make the body strong and tough to cut, etc. It's the reason you see Asian festivals where people hang themselves from hooks, etc.... to show how their "qi" works, particularly when they are under a religious trance. But it's part of "iron shirt" trainings, etc., and it's even found in Japanese Koryu. See this:

http://www.neijia.com/ICEPICK1.JPG

Anyway, without belaboring this too much, all these things are very ancient (or they could not have become so widespread in so many cultures) and the foundations of the Ki paradigm are pretty well set. You can't make a suitable New Age religion that is somewhat a derivative of the old Qi beliefs without deliberately changing things. That's where I tend to call foul. Besides, since Ki itself does not exist (all those Asians have dropped it from their education and scientific systems, so that's a big clue), worry about the realities of Ki and legitimate definitions of what IS in it is a waste of time. What WAS in it legitimately would make a good discussion sometime, though.

Hope that gave you an idea of the size and age of this thing. The consensus is in the commonality.

Regards,

Mike
This appears to be the point where I declare we should agree to disagree. Your explanation failed to convince me of a core concept that is set within a consensus of the Asian community. I believe this material should be looked at with a very critical eye, in order to gain anything of real value from it. I think you're drawing conclusions from some situations where no conclusions can yet be drawn.

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Old 07-23-2006, 01:53 PM   #155
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
There is nothing in traditional texts that talk about fascia-related structures. This indicates to me that this is a modern western concept trying to retain the physical model for Ki. There has yet to be anything that relates any meridians or Ki flow to points in the fascia structure.
The connective tissue, "silk" (many qigongs refer to connective tissue as "silk"), many available writings, including the oldest directly explicative writings on qigongs, etc., refer to the fascia ("connective tissue", "sinews", etc.), Ted. I can only assume that you have never bothered to do even superficial research into what qi/ki is, if you don't know that.
Quote:
(about "sexual essence up the spinal cord to the head") Tell that to a Zen monk. I'm sure he will be surprised.
I don't think he'll be the least bit surprised, Ted. What's surprising is that you don't know this. Have you ever done any reading, research, etc., on what meditation, "enlightenment", etc., really contain in the traditional sense?
Quote:
This appears to be the point where I declare we should agree to disagree. Your explanation failed to convince me of a core concept that is set within a consensus of the Asian community. I believe this material should be looked at with a very critical eye, in order to gain anything of real value from it. I think you're drawing conclusions from some situations where no conclusions can yet be drawn.
I can appreciate that you have an opinion to share, Ted, but I think your knowledge of ki/qi is pretty much limited to what you've learned from the Tohei sect.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-23-2006, 06:16 PM   #156
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Re: What is the One Point?

"Those who know, do not say; those who say, do not know." Lao-tse

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Old 07-23-2006, 06:38 PM   #157
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is the One Point?

"Rabbit's clever," said Pooh thoughtfully.
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit's clever."
"And he has Brain."
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit has Brain."
There was a long silence.
"I suppose," said Pooh, "that that's why he never understands anything."

A.A. Milne
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Old 07-23-2006, 07:28 PM   #158
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
"Rabbit's clever," said Pooh thoughtfully.
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit's clever."
"And he has Brain."
"Yes," said Piglet, "Rabbit has Brain."
There was a long silence.
"I suppose," said Pooh, "that that's why he never understands anything."

A.A. Milne
Mike, my girlfriend tells me this all the time (my nickname being "rabbit"... and no, not for THAT reason)!

She is "azn", and understands everyday uses of Ki. She also studies Western opera singing, and knows how to lift her diaphragm and stretch her spine while pulling downwards at the same time along another path to avoid going "up" during high notes. She also got a great benefit from my poor teaching of some of Ark's extention/compression exercises. She just did them, seeing how they related to what she does, without analysis and theory taking the place of practice. Tell me I'm biased, but I say, "smart girl".
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Old 07-23-2006, 07:48 PM   #159
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:
She just did them, seeing how they related to what she does, without analysis and theory taking the place of practice. Tell me I'm biased, but I say, "smart girl".
"The way to use life is to do nothing through acting,
The way to use life is to do everything through being." Lao Tszu

" Owl instead, is the opposite of Pooh, the Knowledge for the sake of Appearing Wise, the one who studies Knowledge for the sake of Knowledge, and who keeps what he learns to himself or to his own small group, rather than working for the enlightenment of others. That way, the scholars can appear Superior, and will not likely be suspected of Not Knowing Something. After all, from the scholarly point of view, it's practically a crime not to know everything. But sometimes the knowledge of the scholar is a bit hard to understand because it doesn't seem to match up with our own experience of things. Isn't the knowledge that comes from experience."
The Tao of Pooh

Last edited by dps : 07-23-2006 at 08:02 PM.

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Old 07-23-2006, 08:05 PM   #160
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Re: What is the One Point?

"Isn't the knowledge that comes from experience more valuable than the knowledge that doesn't?"
The Tao of Pooh

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Old 07-24-2006, 06:13 AM   #161
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
There has yet to be anything that relates any meridians or Ki flow to points in the fascia structure.
"Relationship of Acupuncture Points And Meridians to Connective Tissue Planes"
The Anatomical Record 269:257-265, 2002
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Old 07-24-2006, 07:17 AM   #162
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Re: What is the One Point?

"Relationship of Acupuncture Points And Meridians to Connective Tissue Planes"
The Anatomical Record 269:257-265, 2002

(Link fixed).
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Old 07-24-2006, 11:04 AM   #163
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
"The way to use life is to do nothing through acting,
The way to use life is to do everything through being." Lao Tszu
David, just for your information.... the very existence of a "Lao Tzu" ("Lao Tse", etc., etc.) is questionable. The books containing statements *attributed* to Lao Tzu are of questionable sources and the translations vary from person to person because the original statements are so vague. In other words, the English translation of the original statements you're dropping are far from the concise things you're presenting. Of course, no doubt you're aware of this hole in the "pithiness" of Lao Tzu attributions that some people like to use.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 07-24-2006, 11:14 AM   #164
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
David, just for your information.... the very existence of a "Lao Tzu" ("Lao Tse", etc., etc.) is questionable.
And what of Pooh?

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Old 07-24-2006, 11:20 AM   #165
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
And what of Pooh?
Oh, pooh.
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Old 07-24-2006, 11:35 AM   #166
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Re: What is the One Point?

Mike,

Concerning the fascia (of which I'm just now becoming familiar with -- interesting stuff!)...

Would it be fair to assume that Tohei's insistance of not putting tension in the one-point and the principle of "relax completely," are just tools to force one to stop using the conventional muscles and to start learning how to use the ignored ones (the' stabalizers' or fascia)? I mean if one is truly relaxed completely and has one-point, then how does one truly move or even stand? Perhaps he was trying to get to the root of the most beginning, basic steps in the simplest way he could?

Lately, this has become my primary focus. That is, standing or moving without any perceptible use of the usual suspects (muscles). Of course, I look a little odd, since I'm moving so slow. This latest discussion concerning fascia has sort of kicked me in the brain and its relationship with my current training. My breathing practice has also become more interesting.

thanks,
Adam

P.S.: Pardon me, if the preceding message was awkward. I've never been a great communicator.
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Old 07-24-2006, 01:57 PM   #167
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Re: What is the One Point?

Adam,
From what I was taught, when you are standing with correct posture, one point is a place in your lower abdomen where you cannot put any tension. Keeping one point is just one way of achieving mind and body coordination which is the main goal. So when you walk, run, bend to pick something up, do it in your most natural way. When you correct posture, relaxed and doing it with natural rhythm, mind and body coordination should naturally happen. My 2 cents.

Plus Ki,
Larry
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Old 07-24-2006, 02:06 PM   #168
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Ian Thake wrote:
Despite considerable efforts to understand the anatomy and physiology of acupuncture points and meridians, the definition and characterization of the structures remain elusive. from the first page of above mentioned article.

If anything, this article shows how much is not known. You should really read it, instead of assuming it supports some viewpoint.

When major operations are done in Red China using acupuncture and Mao's Little Red Book of Quotes in place of anesthesia, it is only the unfaithful who feel the pain of surgery. Patients would get off the operating table and walk back to their beds waving their Little Red Books. The power of belief is powerful. It's like the mind leads the body.

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Old 07-24-2006, 02:32 PM   #169
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
T... Have you ever done any reading, research, etc., on what meditation, "enlightenment", etc., really contain in the traditional sense? I can appreciate that you have an opinion to share, Ted, but I think your knowledge of ki/qi is pretty much limited to what you've learned from the Tohei sect.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
I don't believe a Zen monk (Japanese) meditating for enlightenment is actually moving his sexual essence (Chinese) up his spinal cord to his head, like a Kundalini serpent (Indian). Can you mix-up any more metaphors?

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Old 07-24-2006, 02:56 PM   #170
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Larry Cuvin wrote:
Adam,
From what I was taught, when you are standing with correct posture, one point is a place in your lower abdomen where you cannot put any tension. Keeping one point is just one way of achieving mind and body coordination which is the main goal. So when you walk, run, bend to pick something up, do it in your most natural way. When you correct posture, relaxed and doing it with natural rhythm, mind and body coordination should naturally happen. My 2 cents.

Plus Ki,
Larry
Hi Larry,

Yep, everything you've said is what I've been told and have been practicing for the last 13 years. 'Natural' and 'correct' being the key words. However, doing something that is supposed to be "natural," after a lifetime of life getting in the way, is easier said than done. I am supposed to have some measure of success at this, after all this time, but I know I'm no where near where I should be. Hence, my recent (self) discoveries and interest in following threads such as this one.

thanks,
Adam
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Old 07-24-2006, 05:33 PM   #171
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Re: What is the One Point?

Adam,
You are absolutely right, moving natural with mind and body coordination is easier said than done. You are lucky that you are 13 yrs into it already. I just started two years ago and I can't get enough of it. I am looking forward to a lifetime of learning and discoveries and hopefully be skillful enough someday to pass on the knowledge.

Thanks,
Larry
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Old 07-24-2006, 07:58 PM   #172
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Re: What is the One Point?

FWIW, I thought this was an intersting clip, a demonstration the concept of the "one point".
Granted it is Chinese push hands, not aikido, but still fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Qex...elated&search=

Moses
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Old 07-25-2006, 08:23 AM   #173
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
Despite considerable efforts to understand the anatomy and physiology of acupuncture points and meridians, the definition and characterization of the structures remain elusive. from the first page of above mentioned article.

If anything, this article shows how much is not known. You should really read it, instead of assuming it supports some viewpoint.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the full sentence you quote from conclude with: "...remain elusive (NIH Consensus Statement, 1997 )." (my emphasis)?
You've not quoted the authors' conclusions, you've quoted their summary of the existing body of knowledge - or at least what the NIH agreed was the existing body of knowledge - back in 1997, and which the research will expand on.

I'm not trying to claim that the article in some way "proves", "reduces" or "explains away" acupuncture, but simply in response to only this part of your argument
Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
There has yet to be anything that relates any meridians or Ki flow to points in the fascia structure.
the article claims that there is - point of fact -
  • "ultrasound images showing connective tissue cleavage planes at acupuncture points"
  • "an 80% correspondance between the sites of acupucture points and the location of intermuscular and extramuscular connective tissue planes"
Regards,

Ian
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Old 08-01-2006, 05:58 PM   #174
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
Would it be fair to assume that Tohei's insistance of not putting tension in the one-point and the principle of "relax completely," are just tools to force one to stop using the conventional muscles and to start learning how to use the ignored ones (the' stabalizers' or fascia)? I mean if one is truly relaxed completely and has one-point, then how does one truly move or even stand? Perhaps he was trying to get to the root of the most beginning, basic steps in the simplest way he could?
You're right, that's what it's for. You have to learn to move a different way and there's more to it than just "relax". Everytime I hear an Asian tell me that the whole secret is just to "relax", I instinctively tense up the hand around my wallet.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 08-01-2006, 06:03 PM   #175
Mike Sigman
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Re: What is the One Point?

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
There is nothing in traditional texts that talk about fascia-related structures. This indicates to me that this is a modern western concept trying to retain the physical model for Ki. There has yet to be anything that relates any meridians or Ki flow to points in the fascia structure.
Here's a translated quote from the texts on the Yi Jin Jing (the so-called "muscle-tendon-changing classic", but it relates to the mind-body idea):

Membrane (That's "Fascia", Ted)



A man's body consists of the entrails, spirit, and virility internally; and
of the arms, legs, tendons, bones, and flesh externally. For example,
tendons and bones are outside the entrails, flesh is outside the tendons and
bones. Blood vessels are inside the flesh. But Qi is the dominant factor
for one's physical movement. Thus the secret for cultivating one's physical
and mental capabilities is to improve one's Qi and to invigorate one's blood
circulation. One's spirit and virility are invisible or untouchable, but
one's tendons, bones, and flesh are substantial. To cultivate internal
spirit and virility, one must start doing the practice of the substantial
parts of his body first. Therefore, one should not practice the invisible
and untouchable spirit and virility only or just practice the tendons,
bones, and flesh. The practice of one's body must go along with the
practice of one's spirit and virility. Because of this, the practice of
internal work should be done in thie sequence: Qi, membrane, tendon.

While the practice of the tendon is easy, the practice of the membrane is
difficult, and the practice of Qi is more difficult. Students must start
practicing from Qi first in order to keep Qi moving everywhere within their
bodies. The membrane will stretch automatically at the place where Qi
reaches and be as strong as tendons. If one practices tendons without doing
the practice of the membrane, the membrane will be weak. If he practices
membrane without doing the practice of Qi, his membrane and tendons will not
stretch. If he practices Qi without doing the practice of the tendon and
membrane, the Qi will not circulate smoothly within his body and his tendons
will not be strong. To achieve the practice of internal work, one must keep
doing it until his tendons and membranes stretch and become strong.
Otherwise it would be like plants on the ground without dirt.
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