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Old 07-26-2005, 07:08 PM   #76
Jay Mills
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Dustin, do like i said and go to the sites and post on the forums, there are so many people more knowledgeable about the FMAs there! They will be able to answer your question in a more detailed manner wich i think is what your wanting! You will also be able to find people close to you that can show you first hand if thats what your looking for! Dont say there is not a way to find this out, its just doing the work!

Jean, your right, i stand corrected! Im sure the tecniques can be applied "consistantly" in a step by step non resistant manner when you know its comming in the confort of your own dojo! What i am suggesting is you get outside that confort zone and experience more than what you are seeing in an aikido school nmindset, thats all.
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Old 07-27-2005, 04:22 PM   #77
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Jean,

Do you see a common theme that several people here are telling you? Get out of the "aikido is the end all and be all" mentality, and see what other things are out there! You will be amazed at both how well you have learned aikido, and how much you still have to learn. AND how much other training methodologies can teach you to improve your strategies!

If you goal is simply to follow the Way of AIKI (AIKIDO)..then no need to go outside of aikido. However once you start the "this versus that" argument...then that is a whole nother matter!

I really wish I could get with you and be able to show you the things I mean! I have learned more in the past two years about myself and aikido from studying other arts!
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Old 07-27-2005, 11:07 PM   #78
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Just watched the DB vids. Intresting stuff. Not terribly inpressed that it is so UFC with sticks looking but I can't deny it would do some serious damage if these guys weren't holding back. I see the point about it being hard to describe though. It really is the person who makes the art.

I have been thinking alot about what makes what I have seen work, and I have to say I agree with all the crosstraining people suddenly. I disagree on a number of points and think that the techniques work just fine on their own, but that since MA training is no longer a lifelong full time commitment starting when you are 12 and ending when you die I can see where it is necessary. I also just realized that neither O Sensei nor Takeda Sokaku trained in only Aikido or Daito respectively, and that their skills were synergisticly enhanced by training in the sword and spear and whatever the heck else they trained in.

So now I am curious, what have you taken away from Aikido?
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Old 07-28-2005, 01:32 AM   #79
Jay Mills
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Dustin, i know exactly what your talking about when you say you were kind of disappointed with things looking so UFC. When i began martial arts some 25 years ago, i had this picture in my mind about how i thought things should be, how they should look, and how they should work. Well oneday i saw my teacher in an actual fight, it blew my mind, i was so pissed off, almost even ashamed! He used nothing that we practiced in class, besides front kicks, round kicks, jabs, crosses, and elbows. There was nothing i could even tell was practiced technique, and definatly no defense or cool locks and throws! I guess i wanted this stuff to be special, kind of magic like! I was very disappointed, actually kind of still have that feeling sometimes when i watch certain things! I wanted the stories of the old masters and all the incredible feats they could acomplish to be true, i wanted to be inspired! Well that began my search, i went through all kinds of styles, all kinds of systems. I trained with many people, all the way from Mr Miyagi types, to some real badass combat vets. What i noticed in all of my classes, or even outside of class was a common theme. When you increase the speed, get rid of the prearranged step by step movements, go full contact with someone totally resisting you, it becomes impossible to consistantly make things look as pretty and as efficient as i had seen time and again in all of the different places i had trained! I dont care who it was doing it, studernt, master, it didnt matter, it ALWAYS ended up looking like a street fight or UFC type fight you see these days! Things just dont happen the way they do in the training hall all the time! Thats why IMHO it is more important to train your attributes instead of working over and over again on prearranged step by step movement! Real combat is just too alive, the reason UFC, Dog Brothers, and or other MMA type events (including a martial artist, soldier etc against a real attacker) look so wild, almost sloppy at times, is because you just cant always pull off those smooth looking techniques as easily under true pressure! It is so very difficult to look good when your suprised, tired, off balance, in a crowded place, or just have someone comming at you with real intent! Things just never seem to look as pretty as they do at the training hall! If any of you have ever been in a really violent encounter, street situation, combat etc, you will get what i am saying. Can you remember the feeling, the speed of things, the contact, the unpredictability, the pain response, the adrenaline, was it a very different feeling from the Monday Wedsday Friday dojo classes your used to? Its that way for a reason, because its alive, because you dont train that way, its a totally new experience! Its like you hitting a boxer then a boxer hitting you, the boxer trains getting hit hard all the time, their bodies become acustomed to punishment because thats how they practice! Same goes for the street or real combat, your playing in a different enviroment and your stuff is going to look different, feel different, and many times have different results! Believe me, i want my stuff to look cool and always be as effective as i see in the movies or how i heard the old masters did it! I want that special kind of magical hidden technique that always trumps the untrained attacker, but it just doesnt always look or work that way for real! Most times in a real encounter you dont come away looking pretty at all! Bruce Lee once said that none of this stuff is special at all, it is simply an expression of who you are and what your doing at the time, so dont fuss over it! I guess that made me start seeing martial arts in a new light! Now when i see things look nice and pretty, working over and over again in a certain setting, i know why, i also know why they sometimes look wild, out of control, sometimes sloppy, and not as pretty as they should! I say whatever works use it! If it helps you take care of yourself and your loved ones, do it, no matter how it looks or what name its called by!
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Old 07-28-2005, 03:27 AM   #80
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Good post Jay. You makes some great observations.

I practice "reality" based UFC type stuff. We do spend a fair amount of time training at full speed, (40%) of the time. But we still spend around 60% of the time practicing slow, methodical, good posture good form.

Those things still apply and failure to develop "good habits", will get you into trouble and affect your skill as a good fighter.

The thing is you have to balance it out. You are right, if you don't practice full speed, your game will fall apart when you most need it. It isn't all about reinforcing bad habits and developing poor technique, but rather discovering the gaps in your muscle memory and brain when things are stressful.
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Old 07-28-2005, 11:27 AM   #81
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Jean,

1)Do you see a common theme that several people here are telling you?

2)However once you start the "this versus that" argument...then that is a whole nother matter!
1)Yeah, the right road isn't the beaten path; I don't think people really look too deep into these things.

2)Come on! I'm the guy who started a thread on how you can't compare art vs. art!...You can examine techniques in a situation and question what an art covers...but art vs. art is an unanswerable question (I think it has more to do with people wanting to feel good).


Again, all I'm saying is know your stuff before going to cross-train and that my experience has been that Aikido teaches you to move better than what I've seen.
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Old 07-28-2005, 01:05 PM   #82
Roy
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Sean wrote,

"Again, all I'm saying is know your stuff before going to cross-train and that my experience has been that Aikido teaches you to move better than what I've seen."

I'm starting to like your summarized post! You should always respond in this manner!

Lets all give three cheers for Sean, he might be getting the hint.
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Old 07-28-2005, 05:55 PM   #83
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Roy Leclair wrote:
Sean wrote,

"Again, all I'm saying is know your stuff before going to cross-train and that my experience has been that Aikido teaches you to move better than what I've seen."

I'm starting to like your summarized post! You should always respond in this manner!

Lets all give three cheers for Sean, he might be getting the hint.
You might mean Jean. Then I join you :clap: :clap: :clap:

Dirk
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Old 07-28-2005, 07:54 PM   #84
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
..... I have been thinking alot about what makes what I have seen work, and I have to say I agree with all the crosstraining people suddenly. I disagree on a number of points and think that the techniques work just fine on their own, but that since MA training is no longer a lifelong full time commitment starting when you are 12 and ending when you die I can see where it is necessary. I also just realized that neither O Sensei nor Takeda Sokaku trained in only Aikido or Daito respectively, and that their skills were synergisticly enhanced by training in the sword and spear and whatever the heck else they trained in.

So now I am curious, what have you taken away from Aikido?
That's a good question and a tough one to answer. For one thing, I've only been back at Aikido for a year; I'd pretty much forgot what we did in Seidokan Aikido, which did things differently anyway. In contrast, I've been doing Kali continuously for seven years now. For another, I am doing what Guro Andy suggests and working very hard to mentally compartmentalize the arts I'm practicing. So in Aikido, I do Aikido, nothing else, and in Kali, I do Kali. So if something from Aikido "creeps into" Kali, it's not because I want that to happen!

What Kali brings is a perspective on the martial arts that leaves me content with new things (or in the case of Aikido, an old thing I've come back to) as I find it. Everything has something to offer. That's why I'm ok with the non-competitive-"forms"-only-Aikikai-Aikido dojo I'm in. As I've said 100 times, I'm not going to Aikido to learn what they don't teach. I want to find out what they do teach, and see what, if anything, I get out of doing it over the long haul. To do anything else would be disrespectful, and my Kali teacher takes resepct very seriously. If you're not there to learn from the person at the head of the class, regardless of what it is, why are you there? And if you think that what you're doing stinks or is otherwise bad, wrong-headed, whatever, why are you doing it?

Hope that's clear.
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Old 07-28-2005, 08:08 PM   #85
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
Just watched the DB vids. Intresting stuff. Not terribly inpressed that it is so UFC with sticks looking ......
Well, Kail covers all the ranges of combat, from long rang when you can barely tage the other person with your weapon, down to the ground. That covers the whole spectrum of possibilities. So some training looks "UFC-ish," but some does not. The goal is to have the tools for whatever range you find yourself at, whether standing up or on the ground.

Like I said, it start with sticks but is really about everything.
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Old 07-28-2005, 08:31 PM   #86
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
1)Yeah, the right road isn't the beaten path; I don't think people really look too deep into these things....
In Best Aikido -- the Fundamentals, O Sensei is quoted as saying he'd practiced over 30 arts. He wasn't single-mindedly devoted to one systems, and as he developed Aikido, took a different path from Takeda Sensei. So how can the "beaten path" be the wrong one if it looks like he spend some time on it himself?
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Old 07-29-2005, 01:37 PM   #87
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Roy Leclair wrote:
Sean wrote,

"Again, all I'm saying is know your stuff before going to cross-train and that my experience has been that Aikido teaches you to move better than what I've seen."

I'm starting to like your summarized post! You should always respond in this manner!

Lets all give three cheers for Sean, he might be getting the hint.
Eh, if you could grasp the points of the others without the feelings of inadequacy blocking it, you'd probably like the others...you are the one who feels condescended? Right?


MIke Gallahger,

Ueshiba travelled many paths to build the right one. He did it so you don't have to.

Just my opinion. But, again, funny how all you sh*t talkers say I don't know what I'm talking about Aikido covering the full breadth of necessity, yet no-one has offered anything to counter that...oh, except for..."You're bragging." (this is where my eyes are rolling for those with feelings of self-doubt).
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Old 07-29-2005, 03:20 PM   #88
Jay Mills
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

LMAO Way ta tell us Jean! Your right, we should all follow the path of Aikido without question, without stepping outside that box, or ever exposing ourselves to anything other than whats fed to us! What do all those other people in different arts know anyways, i think its just a bunch of punch drunk shit talkers that have never had a real fight in their life! Follow Jean, Aikido is best, Aikido is best, now drink this coolaid, your getting sleepy, your getting sleepy AIKIDO IS MY MASTER!
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Old 07-29-2005, 03:35 PM   #89
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

I don't really consider my self a talker. I'd love to come and train with you. I'll pit my skills up against any martial artist. I am not afraid to expose myself and my shortcomings, it is how I get better.

This is the only way to counter.
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Old 07-29-2005, 10:48 PM   #90
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
..... funny how all you sh*t talkers.... .
Jean, if for some reason or other, you have a problem with the idea of people doing other arts in addition to Aikido, I'm sorry, but that in no way gives you the right to be insulting.

Like almost everyone here, I am training in Aikido. I was first exposed to it back in the '80s, and although I dropped out of that dojo after two years, I retained an interest in the art and got back into it last year. I was doing karate at the time I first took Aikido, and I am doing other arts now that I am continuing it. That experience has informed my opinions.

I don't take kindly to being told I am a "sh*t talker" because I have voiced my opinions, or being told I am not "dedictated" to Aikido because it's not the only art I do. If you have the moral authority of O Sensei's founding "the right path," why resort to insults?

You don't like crosstraining, fine, don't like it. You want to think Aikido can handle anything, fine, think that. There's anecodtal evidence of Aikido instructors handling attacks they have not formally trained against. But if you think for a moment that somehow makes you better than anyone else here, to the point where you can fling insults around, then buddy, you got another thing coming.
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Old 07-29-2005, 11:11 PM   #91
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
.... Thanks alot for the extra sites and video links, they have helped alot, but as far as I am concerned my question still stands.
The problem is, your question is almost impossible to answer in any concise way. For example, imagine describing something like shomenuchi irimi nage over the phone to someone who had never heard of Aikido -- there are people like this -- but maybe had once done some Karate or TKD. I'm not talking about a brief description about what it is, but a detailed description of specific technques. Over the phone. To someone who has no clue. I'm sorry, but the short answer is there are no short answers. In fact, after seven years there's a ton of stuff I didn't know, and I've been training in Kali! So how much do you think you can get from an online forum?

In addition, I think you're worrying over nothing. Ok, I have never been west of Denver, much less to the LA area, so I don't know what the situaiton is out there. Nor did I appreciate until your post how risky things can be for an EMT person. But I think it is highly unlikely that the specific scenario you're worrying about has any chance of coming to pass. Guro Andy Astle keeps reiterating how rare martial artists are in our culture; it gets even worse when you realize that up to 90% of then people who start will quit inside a year. And some arts are rarer than other depending on how long they've been established. Statistically, you are more likely to have a run-in with a karate or TKD person than someone from a SE Asian system like Kali. Those immigrant guys teaching things in their basements probably teach family members, if anybody, and swear them to secrecy, and it's unlikely you'll run into them. In fract, Guro Andy was in the Philipines some years ago, and he said that most people did FMA in their back yards, but there were few schools in it; Karate and TKD dominated the scene over there. Heck, you're more likely to bump into AIKIDO people over there in all probabilty!

You want to worry about the hazzards of being an EMT person in LA, worry about the things they really face, not some imagined confrontation that may never happen. If that doesn't put your mind at ease, then as I said in another post, crosstraining in Kali is probably the best -- if not only -- way to get a handle on it. Yeah, I know, you like the idea slightly less than Jean does, but then you're the one worrying about being attacked by an FMA person. [ton of bricks] Either do something about it or don't let it bother you; pick one. [/ton of bricks]
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Old 07-30-2005, 01:22 PM   #92
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Mike Gallagher, Sorry about that. I intended to put a larger space between those paragraphs to signify that it wasn't necessarily directed at you.


Kevin, Not calling you a sh*t talker necessarily. Actually, when I use the phrase, it's more while laughing anyway.

As far as you being willing to put your stuff up against another, that still wouldn't say anything about BJJ or Aikido or anything else except your willingness. The things that you find out in those matches only tell you about where you're lacking...not where BJJ or Aikido are lacking.


I don't see anything wrong with saying,"I think Aikido lacks here or there." We've all got opinions. I'm just saying (this is going out to all who do this) if you're going to say it and it gets challenged, atleast answer the challenge and drop it. Or, don't answer the challenge and stop posting your opinions which you refuse to substantiate.

One note: LOL. As I write this, I fear I may be guilty of the same thing. Please, feel free to call me out.
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Old 07-30-2005, 05:05 PM   #93
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Okay, just a few quick things Mike:

1. Your last post was centered on a previous post that I admitted was more/less void in a subsequent post.

2. I realize how rare MAists are. I also understand the unlikelyhood of the given scenario ever taking place. This post was brought about by some comments from various people I have trained with and some medical professionals who were telling stories, giving advice, or giving warnings. Awareness is your best defence in any situation, so I decided to start this post to raise my own awareness. Until I saw the videos I was just not satisfied that you couldn't break kali down in a specific fashion. Now I am.

3. In light of me "worring" about something that is probably never going to happen, as I have mentioned before, I know people who have had guns in their face, knives drawn on them, and I have heard of EMS jumping out of the ambulance for something like a stabbing before the police get there and winding up dead. Just awareness. This is a freak scenario, but it does happen. Just like the paramedic being beat to death in the back of the ambulance by the PCP addict. Again, freak occurence that could have been prevented but it has happened. I'm not worried about something that is probably never going to happen. I am in no means worried about it in the same fashion I'm not worried about having to know how to jump out of a moving car on the free way because I have been abducted by someone, I am just curious.

Jean, just to clarify some things for you about what I am saying (since I seem to be on both sides). I do believe that Aikido does have all the answers built into the art. That is knowledge. But the thing that O Sensei, Takeda, and a handful of other accomplished martial artists have that no ammount of dojo training is going to give you is experience. I know people who use this art on a daily basis in real situations, maybe not the preverbial street fight, but in situations where they can and will be harmed if they cannot neutralize someone. They have knowledge and experience and I hope I get as good as some of them are. O Sensei had experience fending off attackers meant for Takeda and with real challenges with real martial artists. Takeda had a good bit of experience.

Once again, let me restate that I do believe that Aikido does have the answers, but every single person who is teaching it might not. You can gain knowledge from anyone. You can gain good knowledge from someone who has experience. But you cannot gain experience from a sensei. If you have to go to someone else to give yourself experience in a controlled situation to feel that YOU are effective, then go for it. If you are in a McDojo then I would probably suggest it because you might get killed b/c you were trained by someone with no experience and questionable knowledge. It is not a weakness to say "i don't know go ask somone who does". It is a weakness to say "it cannot be done."
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Old 07-30-2005, 11:17 PM   #94
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Mike Gallagher, Sorry about that. I intended to put a larger space between those paragraphs to signify that it wasn't necessarily directed at you.
Thanks.

Quote:
..... I don't see anything wrong with saying,"I think Aikido lacks here or there." We've all got opinions. I'm just saying (this is going out to all who do this) if you're going to say it and it gets challenged, atleast answer the challenge and drop it. Or, don't answer the challenge and stop posting your opinions which you refuse to substantiate.....
Well, on the one hand, the simple fact is there is a laundry list of techniques Aikido people don't train against. These include on the one hand, kickboxing combinations and strategies; on the other hand, ground fighting scenarios. Some styles/systems/dojos address these things, I know, but many including the two I have been in do not. I have both the Doshu's Best Aikido books, and he doesn't go near them, either. And certain trypes of training, like sparring, are not done either. Many other martial artists do them. That's all there is to it.

Does this mean that a "traditionally" trained Aikido person is doomed facing someone from systems where they do kickboxing and/or grappling and train with sparring/randori/rolling? That's where I pull up short and say, "I don't know." I would say our hypotheitcal Aikidoka would be at a serious disadvantage, but on the other hand -- and the Doshu had one in Best Aikido -- of Aikido people facing things that they haven't formally trained against and prevailing. Then again, no one in the Aikido world is going to repeat the story of an Aikido person who gets his butt kicked unless it's an Aikido person who used that experience to found a "combat Aikido" system. What can you do?

Having said all that, with the emphasis my Kali teacher has placed on respect, I have not problem with the idea that all of those issues are moot if your instructors and seniors tell you "Don't do ______." That's the end; you don't do it, because that would be disrespectful.

WRT Dustin's question, I never took the tack of "you will get your ass kicked," instead pointing out, "this is what you have to be aware of." Maybe Aikido has the answers to it, but it still hopes to know the what the questions are, right?

For myself, well, I'm the guy who still has massive problems with forward ukemi. It'll probably be a long time before I'm in a postion to say how well Aikido works against "non Aikido" sparring, although I have had some interesting experiences with pushing hands drills. But I don't worry about what Sensei DOESN'T teach. Makes life simpler, actually.

Hope this clears things up.
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Old 07-30-2005, 11:27 PM   #95
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
Okay, just a few quick things Mike:

1. Your last post was centered on a previous post that I admitted was more/less void in a subsequent post.
Yeah, well, I missed the post and was playing catch up.

Quote:
2. I realize how rare MAists are. I also understand the unlikelyhood of the given scenario ever taking place. This post was brought about by some comments from various people I have trained with and some medical professionals who were telling stories, giving advice, or giving warnings. Awareness is your best defence in any situation, so I decided to start this post to raise my own awareness. Until I saw the videos I was just not satisfied that you couldn't break kali down in a specific fashion. Now I am.

3. In light of me "worring" about something that is probably never going to happen, as I have mentioned before, I know people who have had guns in their face, knives drawn on them, and I have heard of EMS jumping out of the ambulance for something like a stabbing before the police get there and winding up dead. Just awareness. This is a freak scenario, but it does happen. Just like the paramedic being beat to death in the back of the ambulance by the PCP addict. Again, freak occurence that could have been prevented but it has happened. I'm not worried about something that is probably never going to happen. I am in no means worried about it in the same fashion I'm not worried about having to know how to jump out of a moving car on the free way because I have been abducted by someone, I am just curious.
Ok.

I'm not saying your life won't be in danger in this job; I am saying -- and I think you agree -- contending with an attack by an FMA person with two sticks/swords (did he say swords?)/knives would be a freak incident's freak incident. The other problem is your questions are extemely difficult to answer. I'm glad the videos you were pointed at were helpful, but doing something like the Dog Brothers is soemthing you can do after a lot of training that covers a lot of territory. I had a smartass answer on the tip of my tongue, "Maybe you can explain it to me?" Even so, rather than spell out specific techniques, I've preferred to outline the issues you'd deal with and let you draw your own conclusions. Even so, I hope it helped.
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Old 07-31-2005, 11:56 PM   #96
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

I had a smartass answer on the tip of my tongue, "Maybe you can explain it to me?"

UFC with sticks, never enter inside the arms, go outside. wait for one of the jump shots and drop the poor guy. Elbows dont move that much but stay away from the flat end of the stick.

:P
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Old 08-01-2005, 10:33 AM   #97
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
UFC with sticks, never enter inside the arms, go outside. wait for one of the jump shots and drop the poor guy. Elbows dont move that much but stay away from the flat end of the stick.

:P
I asked for an explanation, not an oversimplification.
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Old 08-01-2005, 11:07 AM   #98
Adam Alexander
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Michael Gallagher wrote:
Well, on the one hand, the simple fact is there is a laundry list of techniques Aikido people don't train against.
Aikido trains against them all...you just have to look a little closer to see it.
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Old 08-01-2005, 02:28 PM   #99
DustinAcuff
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

explination: kali is stick swinging jumpin monkeys who lack the discipline to mount a controlled attack, stay on the line and intrestingly try to weild one jo in each hand.

Just kidding.

Looks like an art that is very personalized and unorthodoxed.
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Old 08-02-2005, 10:34 AM   #100
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido vs. Escrima/Kali

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Aikido trains against them all...you just have to look a little closer to see it.
[sarcasm] Hmmm .... then I guess the Doshu will put the variations used against kicks, boxing cobination, ground fighting, and shoots in his third Best Aikido book, because they aren't in the first two. Must be more advanced technique. [/sarcasm]

If you're saying that someone grounded in Aikido's principles can apply the technqies against "non-standard" attacks, yeah, I'll conceed the possiblity. But it doesn't help matters that most Aikidoists won't see those things in the dojo. Period. They'd be on their own without so much as a hint of what to do.

But as I have said many, many times many many times already, I'm not going to Aikido for what they don't teach! So while I can note the above problems, for me, it's not a showstopper.
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