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Old 01-28-2011, 11:30 AM   #168
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,646
Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
If you can pull off the shiko (sumo stomp) with someone on your back, that would be rather interesting. That one requires very little leg muscle to pull off despite the fact that beginners use their quads way to much which also applies to mabu/tenchijin as well. While I won't go into the mechanics of how the exercise is done other than saying that it requires "being under" the weight your arms and legs and that you don't bend your waist, the version he demonstrated requires making the other person effectively part of your body.
I tired this last night. I could do it. I do however use my quads and butt muscles. Other then getting someone to touch our muscles or attaching sensors to them, I don't know how we could figure out if IP people are using less muscle when they do this. I can however achieve the same result.

This also might be a sticking point for your opinion and mine. In my opinion achieving the same result is fine. But you might be interested in some other quality of the result. Either way, I'll post a video and we can talk about it.

I will lay out how most people usually attempt kokyu ho, I have seen power lifters, MMA semi-pro's etc usually try it in this manner. After that I will talk about how you should be doing it, which goes back to that list of things that IS people tend to do.

The goal of the exercise is not to push the person backwards, rather to pop them predominantly upwards. Given the path of the arms, there will of course be some lateral movement. Once the person is up, then you can manipulate them over to the side via the same mechanic you use to pop them upwards (via the same list of things I mentioned to you earlier) rather than pulling them around with the arms, or twisting the hips with a rotation. It is more or less kokyu dosa. From what I remember Akuzawa sensei saying in the past, this is more or less how they spent their class time in Sagawa's Daito Ryu dojo.
I can do this, but I'm not sure if I would meet your qualifications. I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but again if the same result can be achieved, I don't know what else to look for.

On something like this, would your argument be that IP people would be less fatigued than an athlete doing the same thing? Or simply that you are interested in a specific quality personally?

It has to be understood what it feels like when this exercise is done properly. To both people, it feels like no muscular effort was expended. There is no straining of muscles like when one bench presses a lot of weight or arm wrestles. It is completely effortless and even if one was to stop raising the arms at any point, there is no straining of the arm and back muscles, you can more or less hold that position indefinitely. The partner being lifted should not break their grip at any point, though clearly the harder they grip the easier they will be to lift. If they break their grip, the person lifting has no weight to work with.
Again, effortless seems a bit subjective. What is effortless for one might not be effortless for another even though they are using the same means. For example, If I can easily bench 400lbs, and you can only bench 200lbs, benching 175 might be effortless for me, and I could do many many reps, for you it would be very near max, and take a lot of effort. I understand what you are saying, but I feel that "effortless" is a very personal thing.


The above mostly ends the how to, though I would be remiss if I did not at least attempt to explain part of what it means to "get under" or "be under" your partner. Chris, I want to help you understand so that you don't think we are trying to play word games with you.
I appreciate your efforts.

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