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Old 01-31-2012, 08:41 AM   #55
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: 100% Cooperative Training

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I was just thinking about this the other day, the difference between cooperative and collusive training.

Most training is cooperative - I really don't see how skills can be developed or imparted without cooperation at some point, whether it is direct teacher-t-student contact, or a training overseen by a teacher.

Kata-based training is certainly cooperative. Even if the kata involves a full-power attack.

Resistance can be cooperative. Progressive resistance is obviously cooperative, but full-power resistance can also be cooperative if the technique is designed to overcome full resistance, such as some jujutsu I have seen, and I believe Iwama training goes through cycles like that.

Kali / escrima flow drills are cooperative...even if one side is trying to do "outpace" the other such that they can get a cut in. Western boxing training using focus mits and striking pads and such is also cooperative.

I think it is fair to say that a "contest" element of training, such as judo randori, rolling, or free sparring, is not entirely cooperative. But IMO you don't see that as more than a component of training....even in BJJ they practice technique. They may not want to admit that they train cooperatively but they do.

Collusion is not the same thing as cooperation....collusion, I would define as when someone tanks in a surprising or unexpected fashion during training. Particularly if it leads nage to believe they did the throw. That's what gives the whole concept of cooperation a bad name - the idea that it might actually delude or ruin the training of the thrower by making them feel that they can do things that they cannot. This is the root of the old outsider view of Aikido as pointless. But I've never really experienced it personally. (I think the collusion between the instructor and his or her uke as they are demonstrating a technique is a slightly different category of thing....since that would be about allowing the teacher to show something, and not to improve the teacher's skills.)

What I have experienced in Aikido is a real problem....there is an encouragement in my style and some others to do the "free flowing" thing....to suddenly flow into another technique. Or to try to reverse a technique. This can make for some beautiful exchanges of energy on the mat. It can also bring out the worse in some people. People will often decide to change techniques or attempt a reversal for egotistical reasons. I think this gets away from both cooperation and collusion, but it is bad - you can teach your partner to be scared or distrustful on the mat, and you can injure them.
Yes Cliff, that's basically what I am saying. Thanks for the reply.

Your view of what you find to do with 'free flowing thing' as you call it, the 'flowing into another technique or reversal of technique' I find interesting too. I have seen this a lot and see where you are coming from. Sometimes I feel the people doing it are missing the point somehow and too busy trying to look impressive.

The main point is though is that of itself it is a skill, it is a very good part of Aikido, it is a very hard part of Aikido to learn. Therefore done properly it is good.

The problem in my opinion can only be to do with when? or how? it is taught and personally I feel it is more to do with the when?.

Once again I see it as the 'everyone wants to do the impressive stuff' syndrome. Everyone wants to start at the top type attitude.

That's just me though.

Regards.G.
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