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Old 10-10-2014, 10:10 AM   #22
Carsten Möllering
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 932
Re: People who are never uke

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Having that kind of structure is valuable, and there are specific kinds of practice aimed at developing structure, and at being able to undermine another person's structure. I suspect that's what Carsten has in mind.
I suspect so too. :-)
In the way I practice we first and foremost work on the structure of tori - and uke. It is the aim, that by working on his own structure, or better on the organization of his body, tori becomes able to affect/control/disturb/manipulate the structure of uke.

And, really, my statement still holds, it just requires a higher level of skill on uke's part. ...
In my view stopping the technique of tori thanks to "a higher level of skill" is fundamentally different from stopping it because "uke knows what's coming and knows he won't get hit".

If *no one* in your dojo can stop your technique from a static grab, you need to train with better people ...
Sure.That's why seminars are that important for me.
I didn't mean to say one can become invincible. Clearly not. I just wanted to say that you can learn to deal with a partner who is trying to block your technique, using that he knows what is coming and not caring about atemi.
If he has no structure his knowledge of kata and ignorance of atemi won't help him. You can throw him anyway.
If he has structure, he does not need to know the kata or ignore atemi to block your technique. He can do that anyway.

... uke simply doesn't respond to energy directed at his vulnerable points, and therefore doesn't make the turn or the rotation that the technique requires.
Ah, yes: We don't have that. We don't use atemi to try to move or direct uke in a certain way. There is no moment in our kihon waza where uke has to decide whether to "accept atemi for real or not." Our atemi are used to just stop uke and to keep a certain distance. So if uke does ignore atemi there will be simply contact to the fist and that's all. Actually we have this situation relatively often. And maybe I can even use this point of contact additionally.

Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
If uke doesn't want to move training is sort of boring.
Can be very very interesting to move someone who doesn't want to be moved. To be honest, I think to be able to do that is what it's actually all about.

Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Their approach is when you bend your knees to get power, they'll bend theirs even lower to stop you.
That is exactly how we practice. But we also learn how to deal with that without leaving the given technique.

Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Their approach is when you bend your knees to get power, they'll bend theirs even lower to stop you.
That describes exactly what we do, how we practice, when we try to stop each other. If I am able to block tori to get under him, I will do that. If I am able to take a step to get in better position, I will do that. ...
But we also learn how to deal with that without leaving the given technique.

What makes the technique work is ... you being one step ahead of uke in initiative, which can be achieved through either realtime training, or uke understanding that you're simulating realtime training in slow-motion mode.
Thank you for this explanation! This is indeed different from how we create an effect on uke. As I said above we try to affect the structure, the organization of his body. To do that tori does not need to be ahead of uke, but has to establish a contact to him. (It is tori who establishes this connection, if uke doesn't want to.)
And there also is no moment in our slow motion practice, where we simulate a situation, but it is always "real". The technique is meant to really work in slow motion. (Actually I find that much easier than applying it with speed ...)

So in our way of practice it is even considered a fault to be ahaed of uke. You are corrected if you are. Or maybe uke let's go, saying: "Ah, your where ahead of me." ...

When neither of these things are happening, uke has all the time in the world to withdraw their energy and regain initiative.
This is also something we do on purpose when being uke: To try to withdraw our energy and regain initiative. If it is possible we do that.
But being tori we also learn how to deal with that. And there are ways to hinder uke to draw himself back. As I said, then it is tori who maintains the connection.

All that said.

I think above all it is not only important but crucial and at last the essence of every way of keiko that tori and uke realize that keiko is about helping each other, teaching each other - mutually.