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Old 09-18-2014, 09:07 AM   #481
Cliff Judge
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,276
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Re: Demonstrating aiki, demontrating aikido.Same thing ?

Quote:
Mert Gambito wrote: View Post
Cliff,

Specifically, Ueshiba heavily cited the Chinese Classics, as has been documented, and Okuyama's emphasis on traditional medicine as a balance to and component of the martial aspects of Hakkoryu is evident in the use of the traditional Chinese five elements (vs. the Japanese godai). Even then, all these noted students of Takeda grew up at a time when studying the Chinese texts, philosophies and operating systems based on them (using metaphors to draw ki through the body for health and power) was de rigueur. Hakkoryu expressly states on its website that one undertakes the "study of "Inyodo" (the way of yin and yang)" (see paragraph 5), echoing Ueshiba's advice to Henry Kono about what's missing in the study of aikido. Taoism was woven into the fabric of life and how those in East Asian culture in general understood themselves and the world they lived in. But even today, I have conversations with Asian co-workers virtually every day about things that are Taoist in nature but are not martial arts related: it's that ingrained in who we are as representatives of our respective related cultures.

So, you're right: the homage paid to the Chinese roots is inherent. But for that exact reason, I think Sagawa, Ueshiba, Okuyama, Matsuda, Horikawa, Hisa, et al were all out to improve on the centuries-old in-yo-do IP mouse trap, each in their own right. Anyone who's read Transparent Power should have no doubt that Sagawa would've bragged about these other men's successes as extensions of his own, had he disseminated to them his aiki-tanren.
I think I originally thought you meant that the very secret of aiki was itself transmitted through the ages. Now it simply seems like you are saying, Aiki comes from Asia.

I'm not going to deny that.

With regard to the quote from Mr. Threadgill, first of all, thanks for digging that up, and I apologize for making you do that legwork. TSYR is one of the koryu schools to have been confirmed as having some solo work as part of the curriculum. Though you would have to be admitted into that system to really know how central it is to the training.

Yagyu Shingan ryu has some as well, I believe it is taught in both the main lines to beginners, and I hope to have the opportunity to look into it further at some point in the future, will let you know.

Toby Threadgill holds a bunch of different densho in trust of the TSYR and should be taken as a reliable source of information on the history of classical Japanese arts even outside of his own. But to put it simpy, I keep looking around for these crucial solo training systems and I keep coming up with nothing. I've spoken to people who practice all manner of different koryu and scant few of them have been taught solo training.

Most of the koryu schools that exist today were once comprehensive systems, with a grappling component. So you would expect that just about any existing koryu would have some traces of solo training in their curriculum if it was so important to developing martial skill. Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage ryu (really important to the development and dissemination of Daito ryu IMO) has a suburi practice, as well as breathing and walking practice that are distinctly internal, that's about it. And that's the school with the crystal-clear link to China, as the key soke (fourth lineal headmaster?) spent several years in China after Tokugawa took power.

(FWIW Here, on Chris Li's blog, is a diagram that depicts the Jikishinkage ryu suburi, practiced in the Sagawa dojo.)

Well, another thing to look into would be Judo. How prevalent was solo training at the Kodokan while Kano was around? There were dozens of koryu systems known for their strong jujutsu that were absorbed by the Kodokan. Kano was very interested in preserving them. I think if solo training methods were important to these schools, that would have translated into Judo, at least during the early days. I will look into it and let you know.

So how about it guys? Can we start talking about "aiki" as being essentially a "brand" of subtle jujutsu, that has loose cognates in many different systems? And note that in these other systems, paired kata are considered sufficient for developing these skills? Such that, if you choose to purse a solo training regimen, that may be a tremendous benefit to your own practice, but it is clearly not neccessary or integral to development of skill at creating aiki?
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