yugen

IMO, yes cause technically you've been thrown and from a combative perspective (if you want to call your art martial you may now be theoretically dead . To discuss it see my questions after my ukemi comments.

These conversation/debates in the Aiki world particularly interest me as a relative outsider. I have trained Aikido in the past. Currently I train regularly in Shorinji Kempo and I drop in at Aiki Eastside with Ledyard Sensei's group that study Daito Ryu.

SK's Juho (whether they admit it or not) is documented to come from Hakko Ryu, so hence my interest in playing with the DR folks so see the similarities/differences.

From the ukemi stand point I would say a glaring difference in training mindset is reflected in that quote above. In almost all the Aikido ukemi I've ever watched the uke rolls out and stands up with their back to their opponent or they take a sidefall and slap the mat. Now that may just be a dojo thing, but it seems pretty common to the vast majority I've visited. This is the cooperative model to "learn" waza, but from a Zanshin perspective it seems like being defeated.

In Shorinji Kempo, ukemi is taught so the mindset is not that I'm defeated so I'll fall and take ukemi, but that I've been caught, now get out!, which means jumping out of lock (try to land on your feet) and ura's or daisharin (cart wheeling). With rolls you immediately turn and face your opponent with Zanshin ready to kick or strike. i.e. train with a more combative mindset. Which all of that may very well be martial arty fluff, but I personally have experience in a street fight where I did a mae ukemi with a guy on my back punching me in the head and my roll bonked his skull like a bowling ball and I got up and was able to have at it with the other two. (Not bragging here, I was punk sh*thead when i was a kid.. )

Question: Does Aikido have a methodology or martial rationale behind ukemi? Or is it cooperative falling just to teach the waza?

In terms of SK waza, basic beginning always train kagite shuho, then the throw, joint lock or escape. On the surface these can all be muscled, but kagite shuho in many techniques can be done just like aiki age. More advanced you try and develop the ability to "lead' (with timing) your opponents attempt to grab you - hence starting the unbalancing before the grab happens - now this is my Sensei and might not be common in every SK dojo training.

Question, which might not have an answer or be answered in my first question: If Aikido and Hakko Ryu come from DR, why is Shorinji Kempo Juho ukemi, which comes out of Hakko ryu presented so differently? - as least as I've experienced it.

Now having attended Dan's seminars and trained with Sam Chin (I Liq Chuan) I'm trying to find the connections even further. To me, I begin to think on the surface that the joint locking, throwing jujutsu can be performed on purely muscled basis, or average as Dan puts it and combative it will just come down to who's bigger, faster, better. Trying to lead (with timing) opponents psychology IMO tries to be a bit better than average and IMO is typical aiki as commonly seen in many dojos. Advanced is the ability to not be thrown as Dan puts it. IMO the advanced guys of the past had the bujustu body and internal development.

When experienced by average people who were NOT taught the real stuff interpreted what they experienced the best they could and considered advanced to be the typical "leading" or timing/blending kuzushi stuff. But in reality they were just bouncing off of or around the likes of Ueshiba and other greats.

So if I was to add my two cents as a newb - my questioning is what is happening that makes me take ukemi? Do i feel a lock on my joint or a simple unbalancing of my center of gravity or have I experienced a complete sense/feeling of no control due to my opponents body positioning? As Sifu Chin said to me "My present is always your future because you aren't aware." It's disconcerting and makes me want to CREATE DISTANCE quickly! Whether by means of jumping back or .... ukemi as it is my only means of escape (i.e. leaping for a distance forward roll can quickly create space).

Regards,
--Ryan