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Old 12-01-2013, 11:35 AM   #53
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: It Aint Necessarily So: Rendez-vous with Adventure by Ellis Amdur

Chris - I've had conversations about this with several teachers, in regards to their own students. One described how his student abandoned, for the most part, training in the fighting techniques of his school, and after several years, was much harder to throw, but his weapons training had gone backwards, as had his taijutsu. This discussion has always been rife - push hands is not a fighting technique, it's actually a way to hone IS/IT in motion. And some CMA teachers express the same concern - that students assume from solo training and push hands (or 'push tests') alone, that they are able to engage in combat. I know of a number of people who have stopped training in their martial art - and certainly not doing cross-training for testing - focusing solely on IS/IT, and asserting that they are more 'fighting fit.'

Demetrio - I believe that 'contemporary aikido' - which technically does not really appear that different pre-war - is lacking without IS/IT for most people. There are the top-level guys - Nishio sensei, for example or ....oh heck, take your pick - who used aikido as their primary delivery system, and were or are clearly formidable without IS/IT (my take on Nishio sensei is that he clearly saw and experienced what O-sensei was doing, got no instruction whatsoever, and rather than trusting to osmosis, went wherever he could and tried to replicate the effect without IS/IT). My perspective, frequently stated in print and in person is that aikido technique is the delivery system of IS/IT, and without the latter, it is problematic in a number of levels. OTOH, a friend of mine recently went on a dojo tour and had a wonderful time at three different dojos, and then went to a fourth for what was stated was an aikido class, but he grumpily returned to my house saying that all they did for the entire class was push-tests and talk.

Lee -
Quote:
That's building quite the straw man. Can you simultaneously cite Tohei "in his statements that all he paid attention to in regards to Ueshiba was his relaxation, and he ignored the rest", especially as Tohei also claims that he learned his IP regimen from sources other than Morihei Ueshiba in the first place, yet use this to somehow disprove others claiming that there are sources closer to home of esoteric technical skills and that these are vitally important beyond what Tohei taught?
That said, I would like to echo Chris Li, I don't know who is saying the delivery system doesn't matter. It would be more correct to say the delivery system doesn't matter if there is nothing to deliver in the first place, and as most of us are at no loss for delivery systems, what issue needs to be presented to the community more? Hey, I do both IP/aiki and judo, I'd be the first one to admit I'd be absolutely defenseless against my training partners if I didn't have competency in judo, but they're already teaching me the judo, but certainly not that other thing...
I can't believe that you think your statement applies to me. I wrote HIPS, remember? You somehow are now reading that I am criticizing IS/IP training? There is not one statement anywhere that I've written where I "use this to somehow disprove others claiming that there are sources closer to home of esoteric technical skills and that these are vitally important beyond what Tohei taught?"
I train IS/IP every day, and it has transformed my Araki-ryu and Toda-ha Buko-ryu. (as soon as I finishing writing this, I'm going out to my dojo to do just that). The techniques, which largely look exactly like they did before, are the delivery system. it's like I put a turbo-engine into an old Packard (now if I can change out the 'body' to something more connected that doesn't squeak so much on sudden turns, I'd be getting somewhere). And Tohei is not a "straw man," he's an example - of something that has been discussed in martial arts circles for ages- and now I hear it again from various teachers, vis a vis students. I covered the positive side of IS/IT HERE - with full respect to aikido and/or other martial systems. C'mon, too much high dudgeon. I get this too much --I write something and people say, "This doesn't apply to me," but respond as if I criticized them personally. OTOH, maybe that's a testament to good writing I speak to you even when I'm not speaking to you.

Kevin - yes. I agree.

Ellis Amdur

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 12-01-2013 at 11:48 AM.

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