Thread: rowing exersize
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Old 02-14-2007, 07:46 AM   #67
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
Re: rowing exersize

Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I was just thinking. I do believe that there are more people out there that get it than you guys sometimes give credit to. Many of the BJJ black belts I have rolled with get it quite a bit I think.

I think the difference lie in that concept we either love or hate...and that is aliveness.

I mean how can you really understand ki, kokyu and all this if you simply practice basic waza or the equivilant of kata all the time?

I can roll with like 40 novice students in my combatives class, one after the other for over an hour, dominating and submitting them...most of them 20 years old...21 years my younger and gassing out from using strength...yet my heart rate will barely go over 120, and I am not hardly breaking a sweat. I go with the flow, control them, move around, redirect their energy, take them down paths, influence their motion...etc..

What would you call that? It is not using strength, or speed.

I believe it is the equivilant of what you call internal.

It is something all decent BJJ advanced blue, purple, brown and blackbelts can do and demonstrate.

At the same time, I don't do very well at push hands, and you'd probably crush me in push hands as it is not something I have done much or have had a good teacher to work with on it.

Does the fact that I can't play in the realm of push hands mean I don't get it?

Or that I simply have not developed skills at that range?

I don't believe it is fair to judge someone getting it or not simply because they cannot do the exercises that you do...there is a spectrum and perspective invovled.

That said, I agree, there are many schools and teachers out there that are teaching garbage, and professing to understand things that they cannot demonstrate or do without the parameters of control and constraint that they create around themselves to protect their image or reputation.

It is easy to do this when you remove the aliveness aspect out of the training.

For those that don't understand. Aliveness is not about MMA or kicking or punching necessarily. It is about training in a way of non-compliance that is non-cooperative, yet cooperative in the spirit of learning.

In aliveness training, it quickly is apparent who knows what, and what they can teach, and where their weaknesses are in training.
Hi Kevin:

Some of what you're posting and what others post boils down, IMO, to this type of statement: "I don't fully understand what you're talking about but here's my version of ki and kokyu so we are agreeing to some extent about ki and kokyu". I just don't agree and I've already posted about people who use the "buzzwords".

I simply disagree with that. Let's wait until we meet or until you meet some unquestionably bona fide "internal" style teacher like CXW, etc. Once you begin to glimpse the depths of this stuff, you begin to realize that there is an extreme difference, not some vague difference. No one who really understands the different development paths of "internal arts" versus the ki/kokyu development paths of "external arts" (which Aikido leans more toward) is going to mix up the two. Anyone who really understands the difference is not going to agree that "aliveness", "good structure", and things like that are the same things, either. It's different.

There's a logic that can't be escaped. For instance, (I'll re-tell this story) one time I met a guy in a park (I had never met him before) and he wanted to push hands. We did. He had no jin/qi, but relied on some muscle, some technique, some "rollback", whatever, and I'm sure that in a safe, restricted "push hands" format he could out-wrestle a lot of people and therefore claim that his "Tai Chi" was validated. He had not idea what jin was.

When we were done, he asked me if I'd watch his form and offer some corrections and I told him that I didn't have to because it was obvious that he was doing his forms wrong since he had no jin. If he had been doing his forms correctly, then logically he would have had some jin. It's inescapable.

Yet this guy talked about qi, jin, and all the buzzwords and he was sure that he understood them. But he had no results, did he?

This is what I meant by posting the other day that at the basic level of kokyu/jin discussion we've been having on this forum, anyone who can even do these things basically should have been able to say "aha" and easily join in. Yet look at the difficulty and debates that keep arising.... while at the same time people continue to talk about "ki" and "kokyu" as if it's meaningless that they couldn't fully grok what we were talking about.

It gets crazy.

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