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Chuck Gordon wrote:
I've looked into this question off and on for years, and even made some comparitive studies (spent a couple years playing Hsing I and Pa Kua, as well as a couple of other Chinese vairants), and while I don't doubt there was SOME cross-pollination, I'm not convinced there was as much as some folks would like think.
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Hi Chuck:
Well, I've never fully subscribed to the Bagua, etc., theories, as I've noted before. Nothing in Ueshiba's Aikido or in Bagua, for that matter, can't be found in various Shuai Jiao curricula, anyway. My personal opinion is that Ueshiba didn't include anything in Aikido that wasn't already floating around in Japan beforehand... at best I'll concede that various jujitsu ryu may have included *some* small things from some of the Bagua they saw demonstrated in Tokyo and other places by itinerant Bagua practitioners in the early 1900's.
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Hell, depending on how far BACK we go, heck, the Japanese were mainlanders in the remote past anyway, and yes, there was more commerce (trade, religion, etc) through the years than is apparent, but nonetheless, to say that aikido (or XYZ ryu jujutsu) originated in China is, to me, a bit of a stretch.
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Er..... nowhere have I posited that Aikido originated in China.... I'll simply posit that *some* of the contributing techniques and factors of Aikido may have originally come from China.
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Far more evidence of Okinawan-Chinese intercourse (literally and figuratively) and cross-pollination of the 'te' systems by Chinese sources (pretty good evidence that the Ryukyu ruling class actively pursued training in both Chinese and Japanese martial systems through the years) and thus, SOME Chinese influence as the Okinawans were integrated more deeply into Japanese society, and thus, their budo.
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Well, I think you need to accept that more of Chinese martial arts than just te arts got into Japanese culture, Chuck.
Remember that picture I just pointed out with Tohei and Ueshiba..... the Japanese/Chinese involvement in martial arts is a lot more extensive than recent Japanese history has allowed. Remember that it's only been just *several* years ago that we discovered all the legends about the Japanese inventing their famous sword were bogus. The point is to avoid any impulses to stick by the old school loyalties and to try to look at the whole of Asian society which was so emphatically dominated by the Tang Shou Tao ("Way of the Chinese Hand") during the Tang dynasty and beyond. Besides the katana, there is the naginata, sai, etc., etc., all from China... do you think that Japan only borrowed weapons and none of the martial techniques?
Good post, Chuck.
Mike