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Michael Hackett · 01-17-2008, 04:45 PM

David,

I don't disagree with you at all. My original training was what you described, and that was with the standard Border Patrol inside thumb break holster. I started carrying a Bianchi breakfront holster before they came on the market on a beta test for the original designer and it was slower yet, but much more secure. At that point we were taught that you couldn't draw and fire before the suspect could close the distance.

Subsequently the view started to change and testing back at the FBI National Academy found that even with the weapon drawn, most couldn't fire quickly enough to get a round to center mass, hence my description.

As you mentioned, only in the movies does the suspect fly backwards, regardless of the weapon. Shotgun and rifle rounds may drop the individual vertically, but most likely he will continue moving forward. Obviously a round that interrupts the CNS may stop an individual instantly. The Miami FBI shoot-out is a great case in point. I don't remember the number of rounds fired at this point, but both of the suspects had sustained multiple mortal wounds in the first few seconds and still managed to kill two agents while walking around the cars at the scene. Even as badly wounded as they were, they also wounded several other agents as well. They didn't succumb to their wounds until a wounded agent shot them in the head at almost point blank range.

The "one to the head, two the heart" technique is largely a military practice for room clearing with sub-machine guns or rifles and has very little application in civil police work. As you suggest, it is better to keep shooting until the bad guy stops doing what caused you to shoot him in the first place. Unfortunately, the general public often has problems with the number of rounds fired, at least in the media. Roy Rogers could always shoot the bad guy's gun out of his hand, couldn't he?

Back on track with GRAPLE.....not a bad addition to the tool box, but it isn't the solution either - nothing is a complete answer. Chemical agents, electrical discharge systems, batons, and firearms all have their purpose. No form of MA related skills work all of the time either. Thankfully all of these things work most of the time and common sense, a survivor's mindset, and reasonable physical condition are the best tools available.

Just keep trainin' e'm David. Its a tough job sometimes.

01-17-2008, 04:45 PM	#44
Michael Hackett Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA Location: Oceanside, California Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 1,253 Offline	Re: Is Aikido effective for police? David, I don't disagree with you at all. My original training was what you described, and that was with the standard Border Patrol inside thumb break holster. I started carrying a Bianchi breakfront holster before they came on the market on a beta test for the original designer and it was slower yet, but much more secure. At that point we were taught that you couldn't draw and fire before the suspect could close the distance. Subsequently the view started to change and testing back at the FBI National Academy found that even with the weapon drawn, most couldn't fire quickly enough to get a round to center mass, hence my description. As you mentioned, only in the movies does the suspect fly backwards, regardless of the weapon. Shotgun and rifle rounds may drop the individual vertically, but most likely he will continue moving forward. Obviously a round that interrupts the CNS may stop an individual instantly. The Miami FBI shoot-out is a great case in point. I don't remember the number of rounds fired at this point, but both of the suspects had sustained multiple mortal wounds in the first few seconds and still managed to kill two agents while walking around the cars at the scene. Even as badly wounded as they were, they also wounded several other agents as well. They didn't succumb to their wounds until a wounded agent shot them in the head at almost point blank range. The "one to the head, two the heart" technique is largely a military practice for room clearing with sub-machine guns or rifles and has very little application in civil police work. As you suggest, it is better to keep shooting until the bad guy stops doing what caused you to shoot him in the first place. Unfortunately, the general public often has problems with the number of rounds fired, at least in the media. Roy Rogers could always shoot the bad guy's gun out of his hand, couldn't he? Back on track with GRAPLE.....not a bad addition to the tool box, but it isn't the solution either - nothing is a complete answer. Chemical agents, electrical discharge systems, batons, and firearms all have their purpose. No form of MA related skills work all of the time either. Thankfully all of these things work most of the time and common sense, a survivor's mindset, and reasonable physical condition are the best tools available. Just keep trainin' e'm David. Its a tough job sometimes.
	Michael "Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."