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Old 07-06-2007, 09:00 AM   #1281
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
Re: Baseline skillset

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Actually Ueshiba did quite a bit of having folks pushing him now didn't he?
That is true, Dan. And a friend of mine, whose wife is Japanese, recently described meeting her uncle, an aikido teacher, who can sit on his butt, raise both feet in the air and you still can't push him. That's pretty incredible, but this guy personally tried to move him and he couldn't.

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
As for immovability what you fail to get is why that is such a profound step, David.
No, obviously, if you can do that and you can move at will, it's no joke.

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
And AIki age is a huge mistake to bring up bud. Aiki age IS peng jin. And its tough to say "sap your energy" to me. Do you know "Why" its "saps your energy? Thats a bad terminology but I'll use it for the argument.
If aiki age is peng jin, I must have peng jin because I could do it to some pretty hefty people and Sensei (I can hear Mike passing blood at this moment) told everyone there, concerning me, "That guy is good at this!"

As to why it saps your energy, I understand it as a combination of firm posture and technique. When he grabs you, he's pressing you down: the next instant, he's hanging off the thing he was pressing down. With a firm posture (I never called it peng jin, nor did Sensei) and good timing, that would screw up the effort of some pretty big guys.

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
More fun is anti-aiki. Not playing the Japanese game and stopping or stalling the possibility of it being used on you. These are not strategies or tactics they are body conditioning and rewiring. Some of which you then don't have to think about in use , others you choose to use.
Well, as I've said before, we had a lot of resistant randori, so I was used to advanced people stopping my technique, which you don't ordinarily see much in mainstream aikido, from my experience. And I could stop the technique of most people I worked with, if that was what I was trying to do....

Of course, I never thought about just trying to stand still and be immoveable. So I really have no clue how you would do that. And you are correct. I shouldn't say that no one has really provided any clue about...."what you're doing..." (why is it still so hard to put a name on it, though?). I appreciate your efforts and your attitude quite a lot.

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
And immovability is the source for all the other things that are highly mobile and retain the essence of the immovability in -your own- heightened and faster ...mobility. The central pivot is patently useless without the essence of immovability. And all the later fun stuff still starts with that building block. There are means and methods to putting this stuff together. Like most things you need to get 1.. before 2... then 3... and so on.
I'm looking forward to feeling what you do. I don't doubt you. But no one I ever trained with ever did it.

Actually, when I first started training, 1974-75, they were doing an exercise called tai atari, where the attacker would rush at the defender with both arms extended, like rushing at a door to shove it open. The defender would stand in place. The attacker would hit (atari) the defender's body (tai) in the upper/outer chest area with both arms outstretched and with the power of his whole body. The defender wouldn't "move" but did sort of shrug off the hit....

Of course, in those days, they were doing a whole different set of tai sabaki and the curriculum included no judo, karate or sword. They went to a less complicated tai sabaki and dropped the tai atari from the training around the same time.

Once in Japan, I was doing some of the old style tai sabaki and Sensei saw me and asked what I was doing. I told him this was what I had originally learned in yoseikan aikido. He just said, "Don't do that stuff." He seemed to think it was unnnecessary. It was a lot more complex than what he was teaching then.

Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Other than insulting Mike I don't get what you mean by unnatural though. This stuff -is- unnatural in every way. And the hardest thing -which most new guys who have met us will tell you -is that the mind gives out before the body.
Well, we have to remain human and that's the essence of what I mean by unnatural in the sense of kichigai. It really means "crazy".

And "the mind giving out first" is part of that. There is a way that the mind gives out that we have to overcome. But there is a point of the mind "giving out" that should not be crossed. In the first case, you toughen your mind and discipline yourself. In the second case, you go crazy. Obviously, going crazy is not to the benefit of oneself or one's family. But even then, it might be necessary for a given individual to go beyond all bounds in order to get through that, back to real nature.

Zen devotees may go through that: "First a mountain was a mountain and the sky was sky....then the mountain was not just a mountain...the sky was not just sky. After enlightenment, the mountain was a mountain and the sky was sky."

"My miracle? I cut wood and carry water."

So there is a kind of unnaturalness that supports nature and a kind of unnaturalness that destroys nature. You can go a long time with the second kind of unnaturalness, but eventually, it leads to ruin.

Is what I was saying.



"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"
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