Thread: Yonkyo
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Old 08-17-2000, 05:44 PM   #9
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 6,003
Chris wrote:
I think we need to make a clear distinction. The compression of the radial nerve is the technical requirement of Yonkyo. The fact that it causes pain is of secondary importance.
I have not presented the condition of pain as a pre-requisite for the successful execution of the technique. Merely that when executed correctly and precisely, pain will more often than not, be the result. In my opinion, if you do not pressure the wrist it is not Yonkyo and it should then be called something else.
The part about pain not necessarily being a part of yonkyo is fair enough. I just assumed that when people talk about compressing the radial nerve as being a prerequisite for yonkyo that they were talking about causing pain.
Jun, you are confusing the older, 1933 manual, with line drawings by Takako Kunigoshi, with the older 1938 photographic manual.
I guess I am. Now that you mention it, I still have the book "Budo" somewhere...
I'm sorry, but to me that reads as though the techniques of Nikyo and Yonkyo are for the purpose of balance-breaking.
No, I can't say that's what I mean; sorry if it conveyed that message. I meant that (as I wrote in a different place which you quoted above which I've snipped) I treat the balance breaking part to be a lot more important.
Maybe I did misread, but my question remains; are there not easier ways of balance-breaking than complex manipulation of the joints?
Of course. But, in my opinion, that doesn't mean that the kuzushi aspect should be any less important...

Our dojo (and my teacher) is very big on applying kuzushi (at the latest) at the first point of contact. The same goes for techniques like yonkyo for us. Of course, I'm not saying that no one else does this but that we emphasize this a lot more than most people. We don't even talk about the "yonkyo pressure point," really, but treat it as a technique that's probably closer to sumi otoshi.
My contention is that the techniques of Aikido will cause pain when executed correctly, but that pain is not the aim of the technique. Nowhere have I said that pain is to be relied upon.
I don't think I was accusing you of relying upon pain; I was just making a general comment upon those I've met who have.

However, I'll have to disagree with your contention that aikido techniques when executed correctly will cause pain. I personally don't think they need to, as I've felt a lot of techniques (including yonkyo and nikyo) which were effective on me and did not cause me pain.
Then we are in agreement! It came across to me when I read your post that pain in the techniques was almost something to be avoided....
I wouldn't say "to be avoided," but I would say "that is not necessary"...
I am very interested to know who you apply Nikyo and Sankyo without causing any pain to your Uke.
Me? I can hardly apply an effective technique unless there happens to be an earthquake just at the right time to make my partner fall down!

I have, however, felt people who have been able to effectively take my balance and take me to the ground using techniques like nikyo, sankyo, and yonkyo without pain.
Also how do the techniques of Ikkyo through Yonkyo strengthen the body if there is no stimulation of the joints.
What about those funky stretches we all do at the beginning of class?

-- Jun

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