View Single Post
Old 08-22-2011, 12:48 PM   #36
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: grandmaster Nobuo Maekawa

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
It's still the same model used by Takeda to teach Ueshiba, Sagawa and a host of others who supposedly had "it". There's no evidence to support that in the course of practice that they would fight tooth and nail to avoid being thrown or go to great lengths to recover once their balance had been broken. It was still a cooperative practice to a large degree.

people always crack wise about the "not being a good uke" thing, but it's perfectly valid. Rather than saying "you're not being a good uke" I could just as easily say "you're being a shitty teacher" and it would fit just as well. Having a higher skill level than someone and using that skill level to shut them down doesn't mean much.

Basically what I"m getting at is that the "ukemi model" isn't the problem. The things that you and Dan talk about that are the problem aren't the model itself, but how people choose to operate within that model. Those things can be fixed rather easily and don't require "turning it on its head". In some places those things aren't a problem in the first place, but when you go further than that and start pushing it to be some sort of competition, then it's probably not even aikido anymore. Certainly not Ueshiba's aikido, with our without the body skills, and isn't that the holy grail we're all supposed to be after?
Is there evidence for the opposite (that there was no co-operative practise), Jason? How do you know Takeda, Sagawa, or Ueshiba never engaged in non-co-operative freestyle wrestling in their own dojos (we all know they did that outside of their dojos)?

"Having a higher skill level than someone and using that skill level to shut them down doesn't mean much. "

First of all, take into context what I wrote. Rob basically went into the Tomiki dojo, and played with some of the senior students. Rob NEVER did Tomiki style, but was able to shut them down. And this was 4-5 years ago. I'd say that means a lot. It means somebody was less-educated about certain training methods and was deluded enough by the dojo ethos that he would say Rob was being a bad uke because he wouldn't purposely fall. I think it is pretty ridiculous for him to say that. But you say, it is understandable, how so?

First of all, what is the model you are talking about? I am talking about the model in Aikido where you do this, and I do that,and when you do this, I fall like this because this means I am a good uke. Is this the model that you are talking about? If so, how do you operate within that model and how do you fix it easily? What is the wrong way that people can operate themselves in this model, and how do you fix this? And who says it is about competition? This is about a rigorous study of applying, taking in, and neutralizing forces and efficient movement (if you are fighting at least). The deeper it gets, the more intricate it becomes, almost becoming an unseen chess game (I am not, however, at this level of play yet), but it is hardly an egotistic competitive thing. I doubt the lack of "competition"--I think this is a pretty loaded term, and Ueshiba used this term in the context of budo, the foundations of which are connected with militarism and ultranationalistic politics, but I won't get into that--necessitates the "good uke" training model whereby uke delivers weak attacks, and the nage applies techniques, to which the uke "gives" into and falls.

I think co-operative training is good, but good insofar as it is part of a set of phases.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
  Reply With Quote