Thread: PBT question
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Old 02-17-2005, 03:02 AM   #20
Aristeia
Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
New Zealand
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Re: PBT question

Quote:
Jakob Blomquist wrote:
C'mon guys, give me a break. I'm not here to defends anyones aikido, least of all Seagal's (I wouldn't assume to know jack diddilido about his ability in so call real randori unless I was one of the ukes myself), but how many times have you done randori agains three people? I assume the answer is many times right? Good, How many of those time did you throw a "right cross" at uke?
none. But then I was doing jiyu waza not randori in the same sense the testees were doing. If I had three people coming at me in the same way as those students did, I suspect it would be atemi strongly or hit the mat. In a dojo setting I'd do the latter, just like the students.
Quote:
Actually let it even go one step down. During normal practice - how many times do you as uke "tank" and go down or take a high fall or rolling fall - for the safety of your wrist, neck, elbow, shoulder etc because you know that nage could just push through if you resisted?
I have no problem with people giving ukemi to some degree. the best analogy I've heard is that it's our version of the tap out. When you know nage's in a position to finish, you ukemi as a way of submitting (rather than deal with the consequences). But that's not what we're talking about. The issue I'm addressing is not that SS ukes in the footage gave him ukemi so much as the attacks and intent he was facing was not the same as his students. In the footage. He may face such attacks other times, but we're not to know.
Quote:
I imagine that during instruction you don't ask your uke to go all out and try to take you to the ground at all cost, right? However I also imagine that someone like Seagal or Ledyard that takes randori very seriously have done the exact same test (not necesarely in an examination, mind you) like you see in PBT, to examine the dynamics of randori , , the speed and group psychology of randori. They then develop a teaching method based on this and try the best as the can to teach this. As you know however, when you teach you want the principles and techniques to be as clear as possible so don't ask for ukes that tries 100% to destroy your technique (that would be a short-lived uke indeed!), do you?
you're right to some degree, but that's not what we're talking about. It's not an issue of teaching style.
My observation is simply this. The randori the students faced had the odds stacked against them to such a degree they would never be able to pull of clean aikido waza without strong use of atemi first (which isn't approprate for dojo practice without protection). If it was expected that they do cope with this randori in this school it would have been nice to see how their instructor does the same exercise. We got to see him do a related and similar exercise but not the same. We saw no footage of how SS deals with similar style attacks. Which I would have been keen to see. We did see footage of SS "demonstrating" rather than teaching (so your last point doesn't apply) but we saw no footage of him demonstrating the same scenario we saw in his students shodan test.
I mean hey, I'm not a SS basher - I've never understood people who claim he doesn't do aikido in his movies - I really like the way he presents some of the possibilities in the art. All I'm saying is that whenever people talk about PBT the randori sections get alot of focus - and I'm amused when I hear people say how tough it was and how good SS looks doing it - because that's not what we got to see.

Last edited by Aristeia : 02-17-2005 at 03:07 AM.

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