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Old 02-17-2005, 11:28 PM   #141
L. Camejo
 
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Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Re: Competition in Aikido

Ok.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The comment arose about not using nikkyo in competition because it can be dangerous. I made the comment, without any extraneous details, that nikkyo can be easily blocked by ki. It can be. I know a number of people that can do so. I can do so and have done it many times. It's done by exactly the same physical principles that Tohei uses for his Ki tests and that O-Sensei used for letting people push on his head, head-push his stomach, the jo-trick, etc. Anyone that understands how real Ki and Kokyu work know immediately what I'm talking about and how it's done and that it can be effective in a number of real situations, including competition and fighting.
Exactly. And anyone who understands how uncooperative randori or shiai works will inform anyone that the sort of conditions where these "ki tests" may work do not exist in the competitive/uncooperative environment where constant movement and reaction to an attack (not an extension of the hand mind you) simply does not create a situation where the "grab my wrist let me show you my ki" scenario will develop. The idea of competition/resistance randori is that someone is constantly attacking, not standing up in a nice firm posture and sticking their hand out for someone to grab it and get thrown. I believe the folks referred to above can stop any wrist lock if they are allowed to just stand there and extend (hell my yellow belts can do it), but the fact is that this comfort and hence the situation is simply not allowed in competitive practice. Movement is created if there is none.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Larry's misconstruction and dismissal of what I was talking about immediately showed he didn't understand what I was saying. How those things are done is fairly simple and not something that can be confused... not only in Japan, but in China, across a wide spectrum of martial artists. What I took issue with was the coverup that contained oblique personal digs... there's no call for it in a civilized discussion.
Mike if you see personal digs, please indicate them. I am sorry if you feel somewhat dug by me and I can assure you that the intent to dig was never part of my discussion strategy. I sometimes forget that not all folks on discussion boards have the requisite "thick skin" that is necessary for this medium of communication. Again, apologies if I have dug you or have made you felt dug in any manner whatsoever.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
As for all the other terms that people arbitrarily assign to "Ki", let me note that in a Ki-paradigm (which is quite different from the western-science paradigm), everything is technically "Ki"... but the specifics can trip you up in a conversation with someone who is actually familiar with Ki, what it means and where it came from. I.e., those that really understand would have understood my initial comments perfectly and we wouldn't be having this conversation, nor would I be listening to inferences that I'm an amateur when I'm simply discussing factual issues... "factual" not to be confused with "dogma".
Yet you fail to give us examples and definitions of these "facts" that are not to be confused as dogma. Some of us are not so smart to read between the ki lines, so it may be best to define what you believe these stone cast concepts to be, so we can all learn.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I was talking about Ki/kokyu as it's understood by experienced practitioners.
I am very sorry that I do not understand the understanding of experienced practitioners. Maybe the concepts given to me by a former head coach of the Beijing Wushu Team who is now a Qigong master were incorrect. I will ask him again when I see him. It is also quite possible that the JAA Shihan I recently trained under had no idea what toitsuryoku, koykuryoku and idoryoku were really about. So I guess he should let you edit the book he wrote that the Aikikai folks are using as the textbook for their high school students. We are all human and we all make mistakes sometimes.

Oh wait a sec. I do remember an application of that nikkyo stopping ki extension thingy that those higher ups do - it happens when we relax and extend tegatana to shut down any joint lock that is not supported by proper body movement and kuzushi during uncooperative randori. But this is done while moving, not standing still. Of course this can be done by my yellow belts also, so I guess it must not be "ki" after all.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So when there's a discussion about Aikido for competition, I sort of get lost because I realize that various people have assorted ideas of what "bona fide Aikido" really is.
I think this is the crux of the matter. Could not have said it better myself.

Gambatte.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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